High school student wants Five Pillars of Islam displayed next to Ten Commandments

Jay - your comment about Eric Rudolph defies logic. Rudolph is a Christian anti-semite. The ten commandments descend from the Jewish nation.

However, if there are Muslim children at the school, I believe they have a right to put up their 'pillars.'

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Jackie -- yes, that's exactly the flaw Jay is recognizing in the board member's logic, by analogy.

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Are you sure that's all of them? You didn't miss anybody?



I'm with the ACLU as well even though I'm cheering her on for her courage.



It's possible to teach that murder and stealing are wrong (as is greed although that's the one most quickly forgotten) without hanging anything from the walls.



"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" has no place in a school. It's a slap in the face to all other religions except the three you mentioned.

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I see nothing in the story, by the way, that says this girl is Muslim. It could well be the case that she is doing it simply to prove a point and not because she actually believes in the Five Pillars.



From the article: "Rachel Cate asked them to post another religious document in the hope of having them understand that county governments cannot and should not promote one religious doctrine over another," Weinberg said. "Any county commission needs to recognize their responsibility is to uphold religious freedom for all people in their community."

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Um, you might want to check your definition of "recent."



The article about this was actually written almost four years ago, in April 2002. Interesting? Sure. Timely? Not so much.

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Yawn. While others bicker over what is and isn't taught in schools, we rational humans learn to have faith in our Gods at home and teach our children to believe what they want to, regardless of what's posted in class.



The public school is not the be all and end all of educational institutions. Parents who let their children believe that these schools are the one place for all knowledge are, in my mind, subject to having children heavily influenced by whatever prejudices and ill-advised teachings are the stupid idea du jour (socialism, fascism, calculus, and so on).



And for what it's worth, I think the media blows this crap out of proportion. The school that "gets it right" and has copies of the Koran in their library right next to the King James Bible are not newsworthy.

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Jay - "Unfortunately, so many schools have made learning such thankless drudgery that most kids would just laugh at you if you told them that."



Agreed. I aim for my daughter's "higher" education to begin at the ripe age of about 6. :)

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"(By that logic, shouldn't the existence of Eric Rudolph nullify display of the Ten Commandments? I'm just saying.)"



This is a stupid argument, one that I am tired of hearing. Eric Rudolph did not commit his crimes in the name of Christianity, he was a follower of Friedrich Nietzsche. You know, "God is Dead" Friedrich Nietzsche? But don't believe me on my account by all means. Here is an excerpt from a letter Eric Rudolph wrote to his mother where he rejects Christianity in favor of the teachings of Nietzsche. Read for yourself:



'I prefer Nietzsche to the Bible'



"Many good people continue to send me money and books," Rudolph writes in an undated letter. "Most of them have, of course, an agenda; mostly born-again Christians looking to save my soul. I suppose the assumption is made that because I'm in here I must be a 'sinner' in need of salvation, and they would be glad to sell me a ticket to heaven, hawking this salvation like peanuts at a ballgame. I do appreciate their charity, but I could really do without the condescension. They have been so nice I would hate to break it to them that I really prefer Nietzsche to the Bible."



I found that little gem in a USA Today article dated July 5th 2005. You can find it too by googling "eric rudolph and friedrich nietzsche". As a matter of fact, it is the top response to the query.



Would you stop it with this tired, stupid lie already? Just beacause someone blows up an abortion does not make them a Christian by default. As a matter of fact, anyone who knows anything about the real teachings of Christ would not accept this kind of rhetoric.



Moreover, it seems to me that many who view Christianity and "fundies" (and you should know I put the "fun" in "fundies") as a direct threat to our Western values and way of life conveniently ignore the real threat that Islam makes to the modern world. Can anyone name for me terrorist attacks that were carried out by Christians in the last 10 years?



And don't mention Timothy McVeigh, that is another tired lie.

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A few questions to ponder:



How many of the Founding Fathers were devout Muslims?



Does Western Civilization have a foundation in Islam that is nearly as strong as its Judeo-Christian one?



How many functioning democracies exist under Islam, without us having to install them?



How many theocracies are Christian?



How many are Muslim?



What is wrong with a nod to the beliefs that our nation was founded on?



Does anyone really think there is room for ALL religious views to be expressed on this wall? All the thousands of them that are practiced in America?



What is wrong with affirming our true historical record as a Christian nation?



It seems to me this little brat craves attention more than actually advancing any sort of real agenda. If she really wished to make changes, then perhaps she could convince her parents to make their voices heard at PTA meetings.



If she really did get the ACLU involved, the irony would be thick and delicious. Imagine a radical lawyer's guild that sued to have the cross taken out of the seal of the City of Los Angeles actively trying to get an Islamic religious message installed.



If the ACLU is actually involved. I have not bothered to find out, truth be told.



But this is just their kind of case, wouldn't you say?

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My challenge to you was very direct. "Can anyone name for me terrorist attacks that were carried out by Christians in the last 10 years?" To which you responded:



James Kopp. One man. Congratulations.



Tell me, how many faith leaders in the various Christian sects went on record as approving of this? Is it anywhere close to the number of Islamic hotheads who daily call for the extermination of Jews and Americans?



My main point here is that you are directing your concern to a non-starter of an issue. Notwithstanding the the propoganda you have doubtless heard to the contrary, no one of any real importance in the American Christian population is advocating that. Contrast that for a moment with the various Muslim leaders who advocate for that very thing, through the good offices of Sharia.



Here is something that I did see on the wikpedia site, something that you can read in my above quote:

"It has been alleged that Rudolph is an adherent of the extremist group Christian Identity, a white supremacist sect that holds that white Christians are God's chosen people, and that others will be condemned to Hell. However, in a statement released after he entered a guilty plea, Rudolph denied being a supporter of that movement, claiming that his involvement amounted to a brief association with the daughter of a Christian Identity adherent. He also clearly named himself as a Catholic and said he hoped to stay one.



Yet in one of the over 200 undated letters provided to USA Today by Rudolph's mother, Rudolph states that, "I really prefer Nietzsche to the Bible."



Kinda hard to be "Catholic" when you break the first commandment.



Believing in "God is Dead" Nietzsche (good Lord, he must have had a hard time in school getting his name spelled correctly) kinda un-Catholics him. You are talking to a Catholic, by the bye. I ought to know.



By the way, an amusing anecdote to the affair. Well, in at least a gallows humor way:

"On March 7, 1998, Daniel Rudolph, Eric's older brother, videotaped himself cutting off one of his own hands with an electric saw in order to "send a message to the FBI and the media." [2] The hand was successfully reattached."



Mental disease does not just run in this man's family, it practically gallops.



The real test is this: try to find a priest or bishop who will tell you that it is acceptable to take life like James Kopp did. Since Christianity has such a large following, I do not doubt that you can. But they are decidedly in the minority. That is my main point here.

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The people you are condemning are good people. You obviously think helpless unborn babies do not deserve to be protected, but they do. You would want to be protected if someone was about to murder you,but you deny the same defense to the unborn child.

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Peter Bland - thank you for being a sane voice in the dark. You make such excellent points. I look forward to repeating them in arguments with my crazy ACLU-supporting friends.

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Logic, logic, wherefore art thou, logic?



The point of the Eric Rudolph comment was that if the board refuses to post the five pillars because of a few muslim extremists, then surely they should also refuse to post the ten commandments because of the christian extremists like Rudolph, Kopp, etc. Duh.



Peter Bland asks: "How many of the Founding Fathers were devout Muslims?" Well, far as I know, none. They were mostly deists. Of course, none of that is relevant. They didn't set out to create a country based on their own beliefs, they wanted a country where everyone would be free to practice their own beliefs, whatever they might be. That's why there is the concept of separation.

Peter goes on to ask "Does Western Civilization have a foundation in Islam that is nearly as strong as its Judeo-Christian one?", "How many functioning democracies exist under Islam, without us having to install them?", and "How many theocracies are Christian?" Again, all of these are irrelevant. In actuality, western civilization is based, historically, on having kings and queens (I forget what kind of archy that is). Should we dump democracy in favor of a king? (Personally, I think so, as long as I'm the king.) As for christian theocracies, I can think of at least one. "How many are Muslim?" One comes to mind.

"What is wrong with a nod to the beliefs that our nation was founded on?" Nothing. You can nod to anything you want. Just don't expect the government to do it. The government is set up so that you CAN nod to what ever you like. That's the point. Duh.

"Does anyone really think there is room for ALL religious views to be expressed on this wall? All the thousands of them that are practiced in America?" No. That's why there shouldn't be any. Duh.

"What is wrong with affirming our true historical record as a Christian nation?" There isn't one because we aren't one. This is not a theocracy. It's a democracy. Duh.

"It seems to me this little brat craves attention more than actually advancing any sort of real agenda." Ooh, let's lets sling some mud at her. She's probably an athiest communist lesbian! (oh, wait, that would be a compliment.) "If she really wished to make changes, then perhaps she could convince her parents to make their voices heard at PTA meetings." because, of course, children should be seen and not heard -- they're not real people anyway.

"If she really did get the ACLU involved, the irony would be thick and delicious." Actually, she contacted them and they said they couldn't help her get the five pillars posted; they were working to get the commandments removed.

"I have not bothered to find out, truth be told." Why bother checking facts? That could, after all, lead to -- gasp! -- thinking! Heaven forbid!

"Kinda hard to be "Catholic" when you break the first commandment." ... "Believing in "God is Dead" Nietzsche ... kinda un-Catholics him. You are talking to a Catholic, by the bye. I ought to know." Okay, the first commandment is "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt..." Far as I know, Rudolph still believes in God, even if he prefers Nietzsche's writings. So, no, none of that "un-catholics" him. And if you were thinking of #6, keep in mind that the translation should be "thou shalt not murder" which is very different from kill -- and makes Rudolph's and Kopp's actions acceptable in the eyes of the lord.



So, how 'bout we leave all this to people to decide for themselves and keep the government out of it?

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