Blogger launches anti-physical punishment campaign

This entire conversation makes me sick to my stomach. I am about as liberal with my children as anyone I know. They aren't brats but they border close sometimes AND we spank. I believe that cushioned area on the backside is there (not only for this purpose obviously) and an appropriately places swat on the rump is not only acceptable but sometimes down right necessary.

Laws, legislate, get Oprah on your side.....whatever! I was spanked, never abusively, but definitely out of anger by one parent and I'm here to tell you, I still don't suffer any crazy illness from it. The other parent spanked out of a need for a discipline technique. Even though I knew the difference and I know now how to do things differently, I didn't suffer any ill-effects from it, I merely learned what I wanted to do with my own children and how to go about it.

I sometimes think my husband swats out of anger but he is working on it as we basically monitor each other as sometimes emotions run amuck. Either way, our children get one-lick swats at the age they are now, (well the 3 year old does, the one year old gets one-swat taps and rarely for the youngest) and I can honestly say that I don't see either of them hitting b/c they were hit.

Now, that said, we are having a hell of a time with my three year old telling us to "go to our room", "you stop", "you go play" and such. In my opinion, those verbal commands are haunting us way more than those doggone swats on the rump.

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Meg, the law should be exactly what the law is for hitting a spouse. Domestic violence is domestic violence. What's so hard to understand? Not every domestic dispute ends with someone in jail, or a restraining order. Sometimes it ends with the aggressor being told that it's NOT COOL to behave that way.

People screamed "civil rights violation" about seat belt laws (I'm always amused at the fact that these are the same people who have no problem trampling on the civil rights of gay people and slam the ACLU whenever possible). Anywho...seat belt laws really DID change behavior. And save lives.

Same would be true with this. You make it illegal and at the same time EDUCATE people about alternatives. If it's possible to raise children without hitting, and you DO have that choice, why wouldn't you take it?

Once people know that it IS illegal, they might think twice before raising a hand to a child. Now, they think it's their right to treat children like property.

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By the way... hitting children is illegal in Minnesota.

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ok panthergirl-
if you can't articulate what you want to do or how to do it I see a hard road in front of you. You see my questions as challenging and all you can tell me is why not hitting children is important to you. I told you before - I understood that angl;e from the beginning. For the third time - and I'll rephrase my questions AGAIN - what kind of language would you use to make a law that prhobits a parent from spanking their child? Seriously - Oprah (and many others) will not give you the time of day unless you can come up with more than a heartfelt story a few studies to back your argument. If you can't tell me what you want to do then your activism is not ACTIVE.
The only way Socrates ever figured anything out was by asking questions (thats my new motto and one I'll hope you'll adopt)

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"He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is careful to discipline him."--Proverbs 13:24

Yes, I do believe that should be taken literally.

That said, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to spank my 9-year old daughter. (I don't think I've had to spank her since she was 5.)

My 2-year old son is another matter. The threat of a spanking doesn't phase him. I don't know what to do with him. I'm old-fashioned, I'm not into "creative discipline."

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Hmm...

Well, I don't have kids, so I can't comment on what form of discipline I use on my children. I can however comment on my experiences as a child, my friends' experiences and what I see and hear around me day to day.
I was spanked as a child. Not often, always on the backside, and apart from once, always with a slipper. This was mixed in with other forms of punishment; grounding, removal of toys, time out (back then it was called "GO TO YOUR ROOM AND STAY THERE!") etc. I have grown up with no emotional or physical problems, and indeed have grown up respectful (NOT fearful) of authority. I was a very strong willed child. Spanking was a last resort, and it taught me that there were certain buttons I could not push, there were certain boundries I could not cross, or I would be punished. Same as if you break the law by stealing something and are fined or sent to jail. Responsibility: if I was bad, I was punished.
As I got older, spanking ceased, although the other punishments continued in case of bad behaviour, which of course did happen occasionally. My teenage years were not spent acting out, rebelling against my parents or authority or anyone else. I had been brought up in a loving family with high morals and a deep sense of right and wrong. My mother and I always did and still do have a close and loving relationship. All problems, joys, secrets, worries - everything in my life, is shared with her, the woman who according to many now "scarred" me because she spanked my bottom when I played up.
My friends, well, the same happened with them, and the same is true of them.

Today, now, I see children running riot, terrorising people and animals, showing no respect for anyone. The language and the actions make me gasp, blush and shake my head in bewilderment. The majority of the kids I know now that act this way are not spanked - but that is not the sole problem. Not only are they not spanked, they aren't disciplined at all.

However, I know children who are spanked, and children who aren't, that are growing up wonderfully, thriving in both situations, both types of family and home.

I think the main problem is divided into two areas.

1) people see the area of discipline as black and white, and it simply just isn't. Some children respond to some things that others don't and visa versa. It depends on the individual child.
2) there are many, too many people, that seem to flat out refuse to discipline their child(ren) at all, in any fashion.

I will finish up saying this: Because my own and my friends' experiences I disagree that spanking is a black and white 'wrong' issue. I agree that abuse IS a black and white 'wrong' issue. I will if I have children, be making sure that I find out what forms of punishment work and when needed will use whatever forms that do, as long as they do not damage my child or anyone else.

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Jay-
Pointing out the distinction that abuse is not discipline is definately valid - and one that is not often articulated that well. As a parent who has promised herself to never say never I can't say I'll never spank my child. I don't want to, but I also don't see it as being very harmful either.

Panthergirl - can you at least answer me this - Spousal abuse laws require that the battered person speak against the accused and press charges. What would your methodology be in providing children with the means to go through the due process of your law?

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That's what I was trying to say, Jay (although not very articulately - I had had a long, long day): the opinions of people dead against, or for corporal punishment seem to see this as an 'overly simplistic' issue, and as I mentioned, it just isn't.

The kids 'running wild' that I encounter could indeed be from abusive home/family situations. I don't know; I have no insight into their lives other than seeing how they act and noting how the adults with them do (or don't, as the case usually is) respond to it.

However I am in contact regularly with children and families that I know well. None of these families is abusive or neglectful. Some bring their child(ren) up with a mixture of disciplines (as my mum brought me up) including spanking. Others use only spanking. Others use only other forms of punishment/encouragement. Others use no form of discipline at all, opting to not 'stifle their child's creative and individual urges' (quote from a book. I'll try and find out the title for you). The only method mentioned that isn't working was the last one. These children are the ones that have whatever they want, whenever they want it, and are never inhibited in any way from doing as they please. These children are also the type you read about: spoilt, rude, aggressive, greedy, foul mouthed, disruptive, hurtful...

Sometimes soanking works. Sometimes it doesn't. No discipline doesn't work at all. Children need rules, guidance to grow up balanced and able to cope with life as an adult. The children I mentioned, the 'un-stifled' ones, will not be able to cope. They will not survive because they are not being brought up to understand the difference between right and wrong.

Once again: it isn't simplistic. It isn't black and white. I truly do not believe there is one completely right answer.
I'll leave it there because I can feel that I'm repeating myself. Those are my views. Some will agree, some won't, and I mean no disrespect to anybody else commenting. But those are my views.

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I agree with Meg. I’d like to know the what/how/when of your ideation. I get the why already. It’s obvious that this is a soapbox for you and I applaud you for trying to bring some attention to a matter that is so dear to your heart. Thus far, if I’m reading your response correctly, you want the adult doing the spanking to be reported to the police. The police should then tell them not to spank their child again. And, what? That’s it?

There are laws written protecting children from domestic violence. What do you want changed in the current law? Does a single swat on the butt of a 2 year old at the grocery store that won’t stand on their own 2 feet and walk instead of flailing about fall under your proposed law change as “abuse”?

I am not excited one way or the other with spanking. Read my blog – my 14 year old has no door currently. I’m all over the “creative discipline”. But, I do have to wonder how many teenagers would abuse a no spanking law and make false reports against their parents just so they could go out/have their cell phones back/get their doors back..whatever.

My 3 year old considers me making her eat corn abusive. Is that abusive? If my husband wouldn’t let me up from the table until I ate all my corn that would be considered mentally abusive, dominating, and wrong. If my husband put me in a time-out chair in the corner, that would be considered abusive. So, I’m not sure you can lump all of this under the same umbrella and say, “the law should be exactly what the law is for hitting a spouse. Domestic violence is domestic violence”.

The last thing we need is to form a society that is afraid to parent. We need educated parents. We have laws against abuse that are not intrusive to those rational parents that are using the swat on the butt to get the attention of their rattled toddler. There’s not a fine line between spanking and throwing a TV at your child – there’s a CANYON of difference. And, to even compare the two things on the same page just doesn’t make sense to me.

Is it possible that you could just write out exactly, without verbose glossing, what you want the law to say? I'd be interested in reading it.

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She updated her site, things make a little more sense now.

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