The Electronic Babysitter -- coming to a store near you

Roger opined:

(((Yes, they managed without dishwashers or washing machines but they also had a much higher rate of death among their children (not to mention women dying from childbirth.))))

Let me see if I'm following the plot here - my original point was that mothers have managed to keep their kids entertained/safe/out of mischief for eons without television, and have done so under much more difficult conditions than those which we live in today (the "so suck it up, already" was implied). You came back with the above - sure, those moms had to do without television as a babysitter, but their kids died more. Are you seriously concluding that television prevents deaths in children by keeping them occupied and out of harm's way when Mom is doing other things? Seriously? This is your justification for letting your kids watch television? I really want to know. Do you honestly believe that your kid's safer than mine because he is watching Barney, instead of pulling the steak knives out of the dishwasher? Really?

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

I'm not even going to speculate as to how you think television has reduced the maternal mortality rate. I mean, I watched a few episodes of A Baby Story when I was on bedrest, but I didn't learn anything that would've saved my life... I just can't argue with this kind of "logic."

Look, I was sanding furniture today for staining, so I had an abundance of time to give this issue far more thought than it deserves. People are jumping all over me for saying what EVERY authority on children says (that television is bad for children). People are accusing me of not being understanding of differences in individual circumstances. I reply that individual circumstances don't change whether or not things are healthy. If your life is harder than mine, does it make smoking healthier for you than for me? I don't think so. If you do, well, smoke 'em if you got 'em, I guess. It doesn't make a difference to me, either way. I'm not the one growing tumors.

Second, no one in this discussion has even attempted (before Roger's leap of logic, above) to refute the fact that television is bad for kids. Instead, everyone's jumping all over my case.

I asked myself, while sanding, why is this so?

I think the answer became clear as I was finishing the third chair - it is because you all KNOW that television is bad for your kids. You KNOW that you're taking the easy way out. You KNOW that you could find a way to keep your kids safe, entertained, and happy without a boob tube if you wanted to put even the slightest amount of effort into it. You KNOW that you can't justify your position. So you're attacking me, instead. Telling me that I'm putting on a show for other people in the store. Telling me that I'm a know it all. Telling me that it must be easy for me, because I have a perfect kid (*snort*). Killing the messenger, as it were.

No one with any sense whatsoever could possibly think that television is beneficial to kids, except, apparently, Roger, whose wife would've apparently died in childbirth if she'd gotten pregnant instead of watching Leno and Conan on late night TV...?... or something...

But instead you (I'm using the royal "you" as in "all y'all") are going to jump on my case, call me a big meany, etc. for telling the truth. You're going to tell me that I don't understand how hard your life is. You're going to assume that your life is more difficult than mine (while knowing absolutely squat about my circumstances, except that I'm pregnant and have a one year old). You're going to get righteously indignant against me, the messenger, because ultimately it's your only defense. The other position - that TV is healthy, beneficial, good, etc. - is indefensable. I've got you in logical check, so instead of trying to get out of it, you're flipping the board.

Unless you're Roger, I guess. Whose children were actually saved from certain death when they were profiled on Unsolved Mysteries...?... or something.

It ultimately is to the benefit of my children that people think that the electronic babysitter is acceptable. They will be that much more competitive against your children when they're grown up. In much the same way that it's actually good for me if you smoke yourself into an early grave. There are finite resources for the elderly in this country. Not good if everyone lives to be 65. Darwinism. Survival of the fittest. Word.

Ok, now I'm going to do your homework, so you don't have to. After all, your soap is coming on soon:

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/unraveling.html
"the consensus is that exposure to violent content has generally negative effects on children's attitudes and behaviors."

http://www.apa.org/releases/childrenads.html
"TELEVISION ADVERTISING LEADS TO UNHEALTHY HABITS IN CHILDREN; SAYS APA TASK FORCE" (that's American Psychological Association, for anyone who is keeping score)

http://www.kidshealth.org/parent/positive/family/tv_affects_child.html
"During the first 2 years, a critical time for brain development, TV can get in the way of exploring, learning, and spending time interacting and playing with parents and others, which helps young children develop the skills they need to grow cognitively, physically, socially, and emotionally."
and another good one:
"Research also indicates that TV consistently reinforces gender-role and racial stereotypes."

http://www.mediafamily.org/facts/facts_tveffect.shtml
"Children between the ages of 3 and 5 are at a critical stage in brain development for the development of language and other cognitive skills. The extent to which heavy television viewing can influence the development of brain neural networks, and displaces time the child would spend in other activities and verbal interactions, influences early cognitive development."

But hey, your life is hard. So, you go right ahead and let your kids watch whatever they want. Can I get you another cigarette? How about a Quad Burger? No, you don't want the salad... Unless it's got fried chicken and lots and lots of cheese and dressing...

This is, officially, my last comment on the subject. Flip the board all you want. I'll pick up the pieces. After all, you're so busy....

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Amy, I'm hardly the world's most polite person - in fact, I'm sure that on this *very website* you'll find people to attest to the fact that I'm not very nice at all.

But I wonder what, exactly, you're trying to accomplish here.

Are you attempting to give advice to sway others to your point of view? If so, let me be the first to tell you that your method sucks. In the bad way.

If you want to convince other people to do what you want, you ought to hold the flaming in until *at least* the third comment. You started it... uh... let me see... oh yes, on the first comment.

If you just want to prove you're better than people, well, go ahead and have fun, but I think that's a pretty pathetic way to spend your time.

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Hey Amy...(and I know you are reading)...I never once said anything about TV....except that even tho I would use that cart, I thought mine wouldn't watch the TV in it. I just thought it was hilarious how easy u think it is to shop with children.

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Amy seems to have lots of time on her hands, probably because her child is an angel (I'm happy for her) because the child has never watched tv.
I'm certain someone could do homework and find out the benefits of watching tv. One I know is that a child needs to learn that it is ok to not get constant attention/interaction from parents, some quiet time to settle down or relax- oh wait- only books can do that, right?

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Amy wrote "my original point was that mothers have managed to keep their kids entertained/safe/out of mischief for eons without television" ... "Are you seriously concluding that television prevents deaths in children..."

Um, no. My point, perhaps made a little too subtly, was that "that was then, this is now". You made a comparison -- "they did it then, you should do it now" which assumes similar conditions. The problem is, the conditions are *not* the same now as then. Therefore, your argument is invalid. Period.

"he is watching Barney"

Just for the record, my kids have never and will never watch Barney. There are issues with the "lessons" that Barney teaches. Plus, he is pure, purple evil.

"Truly, you have a dizzying intellect."

Why thank you.

"People are jumping all over me for saying what EVERY authority on children says (that television is bad for children)."

Bzzt. Wrong. I'm sorry, but not "EVERY" authority says that. Take a look at the quotes you provided. Not one of them say "television is bad for children." There are issues with too much, or certain types of television. But nothing is truly "bad" or "good" -- your steak knives, for example, are very handy for cutting steak, but they are also quite useful for murder. Television can be used improperly or not. I know of a six-year-old that watches Fear Factor. I don't agree with that at all, but I don't go around berating the parents -- it's none of my business, really.

"I reply that individual circumstances don't change whether or not things are healthy."

Actually, they can. Would you put toxic substances in your body? Probably not, generally. But if circumstances changed and you found out you had cancer, you might very well start a program of chemotherapy. Surely you don't think that television is never good or educational or useful?

"refute the fact that television is bad for kids."

Because such a blanket statement is obviously wrong. Are you saying that television is bad for a kid dying of a debilitating disease and who is unable to get up and move around or hold a book or otherwise see the world outside his hospital room? I'd say that in that case, television would be pretty darn good for that kid. So there goes that argument. Now, if you want to address every situation, individually, that the other posters here face, then you can decide whether, in those situations, television is "bad" for those kids. Otherwise, don't make overly broad, facile, judgements like that (if you want your arguments taken seriously.)

"Instead, everyone's jumping all over my case. I asked myself, while sanding, why is this so?"

Mostly because of the amazingly rude way you managed to insult everyone while placing yourself on a pedestal.

"it is because you all KNOW that television is bad for your kids."

Bzzt. Wrong again. Some television shows are bad for my kids. I don't let them watch them. Others are good for them. They watch them. See above for why everyone took such offense to your remarks.

"No one with any sense whatsoever could possibly think that television is beneficial to kids, except, apparently, Roger..."

"Virtually every time Sasame Street's educational value has been tested -- and the show has been subject to more academic scrutiny than any television show in history -- it has been proved to improve the reading and learning skills of its viewers." From The Tipping Point by Malcom Gladwell -- He references particularly a study done by the "Recontact" project of the U of Mass at Amherst and the U of Kansas ca. 1995. Speak not of what you do not know. (Remember that wife of mine? The one what didn't die in childbirth? She is an expert on education, particularly early childhood learning. Her masters was in educational technology, iirc.)

"You're going to tell me that I don't understand how hard your life is."

No, just how wrong you are.

"The other position - that TV is healthy, beneficial, good, etc. - is indefensable."

Actually, it isn't. See above. But again, TV is neither good nor bad, inherently. It is, ultimately, nothing more than a tool to be used or misused. Or, as in your case, not used at all.

"Unless you're Roger, I guess. Whose children were actually saved from certain death when they were profiled on Unsolved Mysteries...?... or something."

Maybe you're on to something after all. I am a little disappointed that, at four years old, my son is only reading at a late first grade level. He's only doing simple addition and subtraction. He does speak French, German, and Spanish (in addition to English) but only a wee smidge -- I don't know much of either German or Spanish and my French is pretty darn rusty. So, yeah, maybe the television he's watched has destroyed him.

"the consensus is that exposure to violent content has generally negative effects on children's attitudes and behaviors."
Good one. I agree completely. That's why my kids don't watch anything violent -- which includes all Disney movies. Yes, btw, I regret letting them watch Toy Story. Cars, however, is great.

"TELEVISION ADVERTISING LEADS TO UNHEALTHY HABITS IN CHILDREN; SAYS APA TASK FORCE"
Yep, my kids have seen some ads on TV. They were completely puzzled by them -- they simply didn't understand what they were because they number of ads they've seen are probably in the single digits.

"During the first 2 years, a critical time for brain development, TV can get in the way..."
Sure it can. If all they do is sit and watch MTV all day long. I don't think anyone has said that's what they do... TV is indeed a tool that has to be used carefully and thoughtfully.

"Research also indicates that TV consistently reinforces gender-role and racial stereotypes."
Yeah, a lot does. Just like your assuming that women do the laundry and unload the dishwasher and so on. My kids have no such stereotypes because I have worked very hard to make certain of that, including monitoring what they watch for such things. Those stereotypes, btw, tend to be most prevalent in shows aimed at older kids/adults or those intended to be used as babysitters. Educational shows tend to avoid such things.

"...heavy television viewing..."
Yeah. So are you arguing about heavy television viewing or any amount? Sure sounded like the latter.

"Can I get you another cigarette? How about a Quad Burger? No, you don't want the salad... Unless it's got fried chicken and lots and lots of cheese and dressing..."
Sure, and can I get you some more drugs to quiet your kids on those long flights? (Btw, my niece and nephew have travelled between the States and the Philippines a lot without ever having to resort to using drugs.)

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I would never use this. This is one of those inventions that i look at and think WHY? I mean seriously-The grocery store is a great learning place. Label reading-price comparing-and what nots. My children are ages 4 and 2 and they love to help find the items on our grocery list. When things get "boring" for them with just play I Spy or sing songs while I finish up the shopping. I really don't understand the point of this product. (sigh)

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I've searched and searched. I don't remember anyone here recommending cigarettes or quadburgers. Did I miss something?

Broken down, we have three replies on t.v. and shopping cars (the original topic):

I'd like to use it because

I might use it because

I wouldn't use it because

None of those reasonable and personal replies should have triggered the attack we've all been subjected to. Except for me, of course. I received a rather condescending, patronizing pass because I'm old and shouldn't be raising kids at all. I'm sure the grandparents and great-grandparents raising kids all over the country loved that one.

We've been accused, en masse, of not caring about our kids, of turning them into zombies glued to a t.v. set, of whining and complaining how hard our lives are. We've been reminded of the good old days. I was there and they weren't that great. If I bothered to go back and read the comments again (once was enough thanks), I'd find many more examples of our lousy parenting courtesy of an expert with one very young child.

A few of us shared some of our parenting stories. You still know nothing of our daily lives and you know even less about the parents you so blithely condemn. Yet you've become a self-appointed judgmental expert.

You said you were a Special Ed teacher. I'm truly grateful neither of my two Special Ed, honor roll girls never met a teacher like you; totally lacking in understanding and empathy.

Someone once said "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". I think I might know who he had in mind.

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Post #47, penultimate paragraph should have read "honor roll girls ever met". Typo, not grammar.

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Ann, I was wondering if you had picked up on the fact that since you have reached over the ripe old age of, I think she said 45, you are excused from being included with the rest of us bad parents who occasionally turn on the *evil* television. Congratulations on being exempt from the rude and judgemental comments, just because you are too damn old to be raising children. ;p Apparently Amy has a very black and white view of what makes up a family. I was extremely offended on your behalf, after I spurted my drink all over the desk.

Amy, The original post was about the cart with the TV. Some of us said we would use them to better enable us to complete our family's shopping. Some of us said we would never use such a thing. Others, like I, said I would gladly pay $1.00 to be able to put both of my small children in a multi-child cart,
since they are usually being used by parents of 1 child, sometimes way too big to be in them, and I have seen them used by someone without any children with her on her shopping trip, but I would rather it didn't come complete with a television.

Somehow, this set you off on an unreasonable tangent on how horrible we are because our children get a glimpse of TV. So, because we aren't caring, attentive parents, we should let them, let's see, to paraphrase: hang out of this cart, sucking down something sugary with lots of red dye, drink espresso, run around on the shelves, throwing things on the floor, and run on the conveyor belt to tire them out so I don't have to deal with them. (Is that close enough for you?) I'm pretty sure these carts have 2 seat-belts, at least for now, since they are new, my children drink soy milk, or usually water or watered down white grape juice while we are out. I don't believe either one of them have had a sugary drink with red dyes, unless one of their grandmothers slipped it to them. Espresso? YUCK! They don't, nor would they ever, run around on the shelves, throwing things on the floor, since they would be belted into the shopping cart. (not to mention, I would never put up with such behavior, and if my children do spill something, or drop something on the floor, I am the one who cleans it up. I don't expect others to clean up after me or my children. Thank you very much)
As for the conveyor belt, my children have been known to climb up on our coffee table and dance, but my son would be freaked out by the moving conveyor belt, but thanks for the nifty idea. Is that what you do so your child will let you have a spic and span house and wash your laundry on the washboard? (BTW, Roger, I laughed my ass off at your reply!, Thanks for the comic relief.)

You rebutted with, again to paraphrase you, sorry, that violent television has negative impact on a child's attitude and behavior. I don't recall anyone saying they let their child watch Sopranos. There is nothing even remotely violent about Wonder Pets. It teaches children about teamwork, and makes my developmentally delayed son get up and dance and sing. Television CAN and IS educational, if used in the correct context. For the most part, if my children are watching TV, I am watching it with them, and we are interacting with each other and the characters on the show. They don't watch anything that I have not previously approved, in fact I have struggled to find an appropriate movie to take my daughter to, so she can experience the movie theater with her mommy and daddy. I have yet to find one. Also, for your information, I DO think my child is safer watching a few minutes of TV, instead of getting into the steak knives or hot oven. Get a new arguement. That one doesn't fly.

In fact, I interact with both my children all day. They go on errands with me, and sometimes, my daughter is helpful. We sing children's songs and be-bop in the car, we discuss the choices we are making as we shop. I've even been known to make silly faces and sing goofy songs through Wal-mart to occupy them while I do the shopping for my family.

Shopping with one child was pretty easy, most of the time. When my son was born, my daughter was still a toddler, like yours will be. When my son came home from the hospital, it was the middle of RSV season and he had an apnea monitor. As the now stay-at-home parent, I had to be the one who took him to his numerous doctors' appointments EACH week. My family had to have food to eat and diapers and other things a family requires. I had to do these things with both children, one of whom, I kept completely covered so he couldn't get sick and end up back in the hospital on a respirator. On those shopping excursions, I pulled a shopping cart, while pushing the stroller with my very tiny son in it. I do have a double stroller, however, it's not very condusive to buying a family's groceries. I have tried, but you just can't fit very much in it around the kids.

I don't tell you this information about my family to show how hard my life is. My life is what it is and I require no sympathy, particularly from you. I share this information, as do many of us on this site, so
others will know where I come from, in regards to my thoughts and opinions. We don't always agree on this site, as we all have different family experiences. I take this blog to be about sharing our experiences and thoughts, with adults, maybe get a little helpful advice on things that concern us as parents, maybe give a little.

As far as the lynch mob you are whining "why me?" about, just remember, when you attack a parent's skills and denounce their love for their children, you reap the consequences. You attacked most of us here, without knowing anything about us and our circumstances. We simply armed ourselves and fired back. You don't have to agree with anyone, however, as several have stated, there is a far more diplomatic way of going about it without alienating fellow parents. Parenting is a difficult, often thankless job that has no time-clock to punch even though the benefits and rewards are great most of the time. Even though we may not always agree, we should be here to give support to other parents, instead of casting judgement from on high.

Two final thoughts for you, Amy:
* I would gladly, proudly and confidently put my children up against yours, any day of the week. They are both bright, caring, wonderful little human beings, even though they have been exposed to the *evil* television.

* What, exactly, was your daughter doing while you were spending all day sanding furniture and coming up with your witty rebuttal? Was she unloading the knives from the dishwasher, or sitting in her highchair eating peanut butter? Just curious.

How is the view from your mountain? I prefer the view down here, on my children's level.

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Congratulations on being exempt from the rude and judgemental comments, just because you are too damn old to be raising children. Apparently Amy has a very black and white view of what makes up a family. I was extremely offended on your behalf, after I spurted my drink all over the desk.

Michelle,

If you think you were astounded, you should have seen (and heard) me! Decrepit and senile as I am, it jumped off the page.

The more I thought about it the angrier I became on all our behalfs and I finally couldn't let it go unanswered.

What's funny is we could have found areas of agreement when the thread first started. I'd much rather do that when possible. She never gave us the chance.

Of course we accomplished nothing except to make her feel more superior. That's the way with trolls.

Thanks for the support.

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Ann, I think I love you! You always seem to find a way to respectfully disagree without judging. You are my hero! I try very hard not to lose it on some of my comments, which can be difficult sometimes, because I tend to want to rant and rave, especially the more I type.

You have your own feelings and opinions and make no apologies for that, yet you afford others the ability to have their own thoughts, too. You seem to be rationally open-minded, and I, for one, think your girls are lucky to have you as their role model.

Don't worry, I've got your back!

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ok, 2 months ago, I was pmsing and I ranted at Uly (I think) and someone else about car seats and shopping carts. I can barely remember. Please, consider this my formal apology if I came anywhere near to Amy in terms of judging. Having read all 51 posts, laughing and wondering at the insanity of it all (and Ann, as a teacher, some of the best kids I've taught were being raised by their old, decrepit grandparents - so, keep up the good work.)This reading experience hasn't swayed my opinion one way or the other on tv shopping carts (notice, I didn't give one.) But, it has made me more aware of how the opinions I type to the blogosphere can often sound to the strangers who read them from the other side. So, thank you, Amy for teaching me that - and I am so glad you could not see my cluttered house in the hour that I didn't clean this morning because The Wonder Pets, the toddler, and I were singing "Hogs do it, frogs do it, even little bitty dogs do it..." while sitting on the training potty AND this was right after we explored a Monet with the Little Einsteins and danced to Edvard Krieg. Wow, a whole hour wasted.

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Rebecca

We often disagree over here. Why bother having a parenting blog without room for differing opinions?

I've gone a little over the top myself on occasion and wish I'd used the delete key instead of the "add your comments". Sometimes we say things in a heated discussion that we might not have if we stopped to think.

Thanks for the kind words.

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While everyone is encouraged to enthusiastically disagree with each other as appropriate, a simple reminder that Blogging Baby is not a place where we insult or personally attack each other. If this practice continues, we'll start deleting comments, closing comments altogether, or worse.

Amy, you have been warned.

Karen
Editor, Blogging Baby

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If it was me, Rebecca, I don't even remember it... at all... so go ahead and consider yourself officially forgiven. We've all been there and done that, haven't we?

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Well, I am hardly a lazy parent who "parks" my kids in front of the tv all day but I would consider this cart. My twins get crazed at the grocery store and bite eachother and pull eachother's hair so it would be nice to get through the experience with less drama.

And I see nothing wrong with Benedryl on some super long flights for some children. I have done it a couple of times from california to new york and it was so wonderful bc one of the boys was totally losing it and going nuts and it helped him relax and get through the flight. The other boy, who is much more mild mannered, did not need it at all so we never gave it to him. All of this was with the blessing from the doctor.

I am so glad that some of you are such "perfect" parents.

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