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Scouts can't have their cake and eat it too
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Six years ago, the Boy Scouts of America convinced the U.S. Supreme Court that they, as a private organization, have the right to discriminate against gays and athiests. They are, after all, organized around religious principles and certainly no one wants to force them to give up their beliefs. You can't, however, have it both ways. There have been a couple of cases recently where the scouts have lost long-held perks because of their discrimination.Now, the California State Supreme Court is looking at the matter. The question before the court is whether or not the Scouts are a religious organization and thus ineligible for certain types of government aid, including dollar-a-year leases of public land. In 2003, U.S. District Judge Napoleon Jones found that the Scouts, who require members and leaders to believe in God, are indeed a "religious organization with a religious purpose and a faith-based mission." Because of this, an agreement leasing prime downtown San Diego parkland to the group for $1 was unconstitutional. Now it's before the state Supreme Court.
The Boy Scouts, of course, claim they are not a religion. "There's no creed. There's no theology," said George Davidson, one of the group's lawyers. "It's an organization of people who come together on various principles, one of which is belief in God. But it's a very big tent. ... You can belong to any religion or no religion at all." The problem is, either you can be a religion and discriminate, or you can get special perks. You can't do both. Personally, I don't care whether the group gives up their religion or their dollar-a-year lease of Balboa Park; either way, I'd like to know that our government isn't subsidizing a close-minded, bigoted group.
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ReaderComments (Page 1 of 1)
12-23-2006 @ 4:26PM
Nancy Toby said...Thanks for the summary and update, Roger. I can't wait to see the wackos come out of the woodwork on the comments now. WE WANT IT BOTH WAYS, BECAUSE WE'RE GODLY, GOSH DARN IT!
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12-23-2006 @ 4:43PM
rassel said...It's an organization of people who come together on various principles, one of which is belief in God.
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12-23-2006 @ 5:27PM
Uly said..."But it's a very big tent. ... You can belong to any religion or no religion at all."
Which is why they routinely kick people out for not swearing an allegience to God. With the big-G. Or have they stopped doing that lately...?
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12-23-2006 @ 8:16PM
Ms Sisyphus said...Isn't this the group that kicks out Wiccan kids? And feels a little icky about letting the Jewish boys in? And are there even Muslim scouts?
If you are a private organization, you have no right to perks reserved for public organizations. Period.
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12-23-2006 @ 9:16PM
Rachel said...I feel "discriminated" against when every atheist in the country feels the need to shove their beliefs down my and my childrens throat. I don't like what public schools teach, therefore, my children don't go there. I don't try and force my beliefs on them. So why do atheist try and force their way into every organization that has a basic religious belief. If you don't like their beliefs, don't go there! And now thanks to atheists twisting of the "seperation of church and state" issue, lots of children will lose out on the enjoyment of camping, fishing, etc. Oh, they can have the land, right? As long as they give in to the takeover of their beliefs by what is deemed "acceptable" by the government.
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12-23-2006 @ 9:54PM
Ms Sisyphus said...I'm not an atheist. I'm a practicing, if lazy, Catholic. And I'm all for the separation of Church and State. Public means that you have to be open to everyone. In schools, it means that you take out prayer all together, or you add on another hour of the school day to make sure everyone's prayer gets acknowledged. Or, everyone could be reasonable and agree to a respectful moment of silence, but we all know that ain't gonna happen. Anyway, back on topic...when you're a public organization, you have to be open to everyone, not just the people who agree with you. The Boy Scouts themselves took the steps to declare themselves a private organization. As Roger said, they don't get to have it both ways.
And I'm sorry Rachel, I can't get all worked up that the poor little straight Christian boys from appropriate family groupings don't get to go camping anymore. Now they're just in the same boat as all the non-christian, non-tradition, differently oriented boys. Karma sure is a bitch. Of course, the boy scouts wouldn't understand the concept.
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12-23-2006 @ 10:34PM
Nancy Toby said...Rachel, you've been sold a bill of goods by the Religious Right. No atheist is forcing anyone into anything. So far, however, until fairly recent court rulings, atheists have BEEN FORCED to subsidize Boy Scouts with their tax dollars while their atheist kids who tell the truth about their personal beliefs get excluded from those scouting activities (yeah, all that great camping and fishing) simply on the basis of that honest admission. And that is unfair to Christians HOW, exactly??
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12-24-2006 @ 12:27PM
Uly said...And now thanks to atheists twisting of the "seperation of church and state" issue, lots of children will lose out on the enjoyment of camping, fishing, etc.
Rachel, we're not the ones twisting the issue. YOU are.
They can have the land - at the same rents *everybody else pays*.
Atheists don't go into the public schools and teach there's no God - geez, with the outcry that comes every year when people claim there's no Santa, you can bet nobody would make it out alive claiming there's no God! Instead, we patiently go to school and listen to our kids being indoctrinated that this nation is a land "under God", and when a teacher rants and raves (off-topic, I might add) about how various students are literally going to hell - the community sure doesn't line up behind the offended students. That story was posted on this site, what, a week ago?
If the Boy Scouts want the land at a reduced cost, then yes, they do have to accept everybody. If they don't want to do that, that's fine - they can either take the land at the same fees everybody else pays, or they can do without. That's their choice to make.
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12-24-2006 @ 4:02AM
rachel said...You know, I take real offense to the little " Poor little straight Christian boys from appropriate family groupings" comment. MY children fall into that group. And if anyone made any comment like that about anyone of another race or other group, people would be jumping down their throats. But it's ok to make nasty comment about Christians, cause everybody's doin' it, right? I love how everyone talks about equality, tolerance, and diversity, as long as it doesn't go against anything YOU believe in.
My husband and I work our butts off to allow me to stay at home while he works for a very meager wage. Most of the guys he works with struggle to make it on that wage WITH a second income earner in the home. Everything is hard for us financially, but my children are excluded from alot of charitable programs like college scholarships, camp and rec programs, etc. because of the fact that they are white, and come from a two parent home. What part of that is "fair"?
And I am so tired of hearing about how non-Christians are forced to pay for programs run by religious people. MOST charitable organizations were started by or still are run by people of faith. We are supposed to feed the hungry, house the homeless, etc. and that's all well and good. We can get government funding, Just as long as we don't tell people who we REALLY are. It might make people feel "uncomfortable". Seperation of church and state was created to keep there from being a national church that people were forced to attend, or for a church to be able to tell the government how to act. It was never the intent of the founding fathers to prevent or discourage religious involvement.
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12-24-2006 @ 4:32AM
Uncle Roger said...Rachel, You've kind of missed the point. It's not the athiests that are trying to force their beliefs on others, it's (in this case) the boy scouts. They've gotten hold of public land and have said "if you don't believe what we believe, you can't have access to it."
Lots of children are already missing out on "the enjoyment of camping, fishing, etc." -- because they don't believe in God. The simple fact is, public land belongs to everyone. If the scouts want to use it, they either have to serve everyone or they have to pay market rates and bid against other groups.
No one is saying that they can't hold on to that land and continue using it. It's just that in order to get the special deal they're getting, they need to be helping out the government. That means serving everyone, not just those who believe in God or aren't gay. They simply can't have it both ways.
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12-24-2006 @ 12:29PM
Uly said..."Just as long as we don't tell people who we REALLY are. It might make people feel "uncomfortable"."
Again, Rachel, you are wrong.
These religious organizations tell people *all the time* who they are and what they believe - that's their right. And they can even do that with government funding!
But they cannot, cannot, CANNOT get away with using government funding to exclude people who do not share their beliefs. What sort of charity would it be if it only gave food to good Christians? What sort of youth organization is it?
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12-24-2006 @ 1:40PM
Nancy Toby said...Okay, how about this: we start a club where no kids will be accepted if they admit that they believe in God. Then we hold free meetings in public schools and public parks and get all kinds of other types of "in-kind" subsidies directly from local, state, and federal goverments. All supported by every taxpayer.
In all the meetings, the kids say an oath that there is no God. And any time a Christian (or Jewish, or Muslim) kid in there admits to believing in God or Allah, or refuses to say the oath, we kick him out. Too bad, kid. You can't play with our atheist kids, you deist, you might poison their brains.
That's exactly the flip side of what has happened for years and years.
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12-24-2006 @ 3:16PM
Messed Up Mama said...Rachel, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you and some other Christians (such as the Boy Scouts) want Christian organizations to have "special" rights. Other religious groups have to pay the going rate to use public land, if they plan to exclude those who do not believe as they do. Other religious groups don't get federal funding. No one is all in a huff over it, because public land and federal money is supposed to be for the use of AMERICANS, all Americans. Why should Christian have to special rights, such as nearly free use of public lands?
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