California lawmaker wants to outlaw spanking

This is definitely a case of legislation gone too far. I'm pleased to see that you see a difference. Too often, we all just say, "There oughtta be a law" for the issues about which we feel passionately.

Sure, spanking (which is definitely different than whipping or beating...nice use of emotion, though) isn't the best option. Neither is formula feeding. Or hand-me-down shoes. Or Poptarts for breakfast. Or loud music while driving in heavy traffic. Some people think that raising a child in any particular religion is a form of coercion and should be outlawed.

Fact is, you can find plenty of experts on both sides of the spanking issue. Both sides have valid points, so the expert opinions are helpful for the individual in making decisions, but not for lawmaking.

Since I think that most of the wrongs in this world stem from a basic lack of respect for the dignity of our fellow human being, this legislation makes me wonder why it is that abortion is a private matter between a woman and her doctor, but once a child is permitted to be born and live, the parents are deemed to have no idea on the proper care and feeding of him?

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From her website:

"Sally represents the 22nd District, considered the ‘Heart of Silicon Valley,’ where she lives with her husband David. They are proud to be active in neighborhood and community activities, enjoy hiking and windsurfing and take seriously their role as pet guardians for a politically astute black-and-white cat."

In other words, Ms. Lieber doesn't have kids. If she did, they'd be in her bio. People who have kids do not list their cats in their public biography.

I so rarely take parenting advice from other parents, I have a really, really hard time sweallowing an order like "don't spank, ever, or we'll put you in jail!" from someone who DOESN'T EVEN HAVE CHILDREN. Let her walk a mile in my mocassins before she decides what I can and can't do as a loving parent.

Before I had kids, I was anti-lots-of-things. I used to say stupid things like, "They just need to be more consistent," as if it was the easiest thing in the world to be consistent 24/7 in a thousand different locations and situations. I swore that I'd never hit my kids. Enter a 1 year old who thinks it's just DELIGHTFUL to bite Mommy's boobs when she's nursing, and hell yes I've spanked her. And you know what? She laughs. The little cretin... That makes me even more angry. That's usually when I put her in her crib and walk away before I really hurt her out of white hot injured boob fury.

So, Sally Lieber can stuff it. In an ideal world, no, no one would spank. But in an ideal world my daughter wouldn't bite my boobs. Last time I checked, I didn't live in an ideal world. And you know, if teaching her, "If you hurt me, I'll hurt you," is the only way to teach her not to bite, well, I'm going to spank her well-padded-with-Pampers little ass.

(Yes, I've tried everything else. Shut up, I don't want your assvice about this).

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I agree with you. I don't think spanking is OK.

The more you escalate punishment — from telling to yelling to spanking—, the more you have to escalate punishment.

Nevertheless, I think this bill will just generate a backlash. (More here Backlash to Come (No pun intended)

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Oops, the link I put in my comment (above) did not appear:
More thoughts on this spanking issue and the proposed law here — "Backlash to Come (No pun intended)" a.k.a. http://occupationdad.blogspot.com/2007/01/backlash-to-come-no-pun-intended.html

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Wow, Anon. I sure wish you were my mommy. (Not!)

"And if you never hit a cat," Lieber said, "you should never hit a kid."

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You know Roger, I wouldn't want to be your mother, so I guess we're even.

And guess what, when the cat bites the baby, I spank the cat!

-Anon
(internally consistent)

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The nicest mom I ever knew grimaced as she spanked her one-year-old for trying repeatedly to go into the street.

Her baby (now a well-adjusted, loving adult) of course has no memory of the spanking, but was never hit by a car.

A ban on all spanking up to age three, if it really takes effect, will coincide with a lot more childhood accidents. I'm glad I don't live in California.

I'm sure half of the readers will say "there are so many other ways to make sure your kid doesn't go into the street." However, some moms have multiple little kids and have to use both hands to carry the groceries into the house. Let's get real.

Little kids don't associate a spank with a lack of parental love. If that were so, there would have been no love between children and parents for most of the history of man. I'm pretty sure that, if anything, the love and respect of prior generations was greater than that in the current PC times.

And I do feel sorry for anyone who thinks a kid is like a cat!

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If you spank a child, you're simply teaching them that when you want your way, you hit people. You're showing them that the only way you can have power over them is physically, that you're not intelligent or thoughtful enough to actually have AUTHORITY... so you use brute strength against someone half your size instead.

As the article says, you're not allowed to hit another adult. So why is it acceptable to hit a child?

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Little children are NOT adults. They don't reason the same way. They do not need the same rights or respect. What they need is love and guidance (communicated in a way they understand).

When babies get a spank on the butt, they don't think, "ah, my parent is using violence to influence my behavior, thus it is acceptable for me to use violence to get a desired result." They don't have the logic to think that way. They think "ouch - going into the street / touching the stove hurts. I'd better not do it again. Where's my mommy, I need a hug."

It is true that some children will eventually try hitting others. Some people think this is because they have seen their parents hit. However, it's been my observation that children who have never been physically punished are more likely to use violence on others. Thus I don't agree that it's learned from the parents.

I think it is a big mistake for people to try to equate children with their parents. Until well after age 18, children should look up to their parents. Otherwise we make it impossible for parents to carry out their responsibility of bringing up their children to be productive citizens. Personally, I don't want to hear parents say "well, he's never held a job and he's got a criminal record, but at least he always knew I respected him."

As soon as a child is old enough to understand your logic, by all means explain to him they physics of why his running into the street can have disastrous results. In the meantime, you need to control him.

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Anon - I love you!!!
I agree with everything you said!
Thank you for your post. You can be my mommy.
Charlotte

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Whoa, Anon. You are EXACTLY the reason why this law is being proposed which is to protect children who have parents with anger issues. Anon, you obviously have anger issues and do not know how to control them. Instead you lash out at your baby. A 1 year-old does NOT understand the concept of limits, i.e. not biting people. My baby bit me and yes, it hurts like hell but I control myself and tell him NO firmly and put him down. It took him about a week to understand that biting means no nursing and he finally stopped. Natural consequences work best with children.

I vehemently oppose spanking. I don't even hit my dogs. Spanking does not change the child's behavior in the long-term. Positive discipline, while it takes longer to produce results, is the best way to go. Patience, Consistency and Follow-up.

Dr. Sears is an awesome role model. His tips on disicipling a child can be found here:
http://askdrsears.com/html/6/T060100.asp

Here are the top ten reasons NOT to spank your child:
http://askdrsears.com/html/6/T062100.asp

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Before this reduces to a spanking vs non-spanking debate, as it inevitibly will, I'd like to weigh in on the proposed law. It stinks. It's completely unenforceable, unless you wish to turn family member against family member, which I submit would be far more detrimental to the child than a swat on the behind.

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I find this more than wrong of them to do.. considering the ONLY times I spanked my son was when he was between ages 1 and 2.5. After that he was easier to reason with and other forms of discipline worked such as time out and taking things away. I do NOT consider the few spankings as abuse. I only did it as a final last resort and honestly, I don't feel I should have to justify it to anyone!

I live in The Netherlands where it's technically illegal but even the couple of times I did it in public, no one batted an eye. I do what is best for my child and if anyone can't stand that, it's their problem, not mine.

I'm sick of governments trying to tell us how to raise our children. Perhaps if more kids were spanked today, they wouldn't be spoiled brats, living at home until age 40, and playing playstation, etc all day?

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There is a difference between spanking a child and abusing a child. Good parents know that it's ok to spank a little hand to help your child learn not to touch a hot oven or swat a little butt for throwing a tantrum in the grocery store. Abuse is beating your child with things like electrical cords and dousing them with boiling water.
We as parents are entrusted with teaching our kids right from wrong...it's up to US to determine what works best for them and our family. We are the ones that know that our child is acting up because they're tired or hungry. We determine bedtimes and mealtimes, test bath water temperature and crawl on our hands and knees to make sure all hazards for our baby are put away, that all electrical plugs are covered. I care more about my children than anyone else in the world and would lay down my life for them. Then why should my government feel the need to tell me how to raise them?
If the government is allowed to raise our kids now, there's a good chance that they will be the ones raising them down the line. What do I mean by this? My husband worked as a juvenile corrections officer for a long time, and he saw firsthand the types of things that happened to children who were allowed to live like adults, whose parents never spanked or reprimanded them. They never learned boundaries, cursed their parents out and abused them, and ended up in all kinds of trouble. If you allow the government to raise your kids now, they will continue to do so, in an institution in some cases.
I say this to make clear that good parents know what's best for their kids. If you choose not to spank your children, that's ok, that's your decision. All I'm saying is don't look embarrased in the cereal aisle of Safeway when little Zachary is screaming at you and calling you ugly names because you told him he couldn't have 2 boxes of Lucky Charms.
Parents, don't allow someone else to make decisions for your children...If I go to jail for spanking my kids, how will it help them to be shuffled off to foster care? That makes lots of sense.

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You don't have to spank to have well behaved kids. Mom_of_2 I have seen kids who are spanked act up in the grocery store. Spanking doesn't mean you are going to have perfectly behaved children. It seems like what you are saying is that in order to have well behaved kids, then you need to spank them or they are going to brats.

I didn't need to spank my son to teach him not to run in the road. When he turned one, I made a point to take him outside everyday and walk to the edge of the driveway and look both ways and then cross. We did the same thing coming back across. If a car was coming I said," Danger, wait for it to pass." We did that for a few months until he got it on his own. He will be 4 in a week and has never run in the street. He even tells his friends the "rules of street crossing." He is a little nerd like that and I love it.

We did the same thing with the stove.

Consistency, redirection, and positive discipline works. You don't need to hit.

While I would love to say I like this law because I agree with it, I don't like the government telling us how to run our lives. It would be impossible to reinforce also. People would just not spank in public. I believe it takes a lot more work to not spank, but I think it is worth it.

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Many other parents are surprised when I tell them I`m a "spanker."

That is to say -- it has never been our primary discipline method, but we have done it, and we don`t regret the relatively few times we did it (I say "we," because my husband has also spanked the kids a few times, but since I spend more time with them, I have certainly done it more than he has). And I`m sure I spanked during the "terrible two`s," too, in situations involving danger.

So I oppose this law, because it will make criminals out of people exactly like me.

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I was spanked as a child and ya know, I dont hate my parents at all for it, im a somewhat well adjusted adult with one child and one on the way, i havnt had a reason to spank my son, ive slapped his hand a few times for touching dangerous stuff, and when he does something that merits a spanking ill give him one.

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I raised 3 wonderfully well adjusted adults, and am now watching those adults raise their own children. Mine got an occasional whack on the butt when their actions would result in an injury to themselves. There is a world of difference between beating and discipling. I am very close to my 2 youngest grandkids, I babysit them 3 days a week. They are just barely a year apart, and learned to hit each other when neither had ever experienced hitting, either from their parents or me. So the theory that 'hitting begets hitting' is totally false.
More importantly, I do not, under any circumstances, think that the government has any right to jump into this. Legislation? Where is the Big Brother thing going to stop? When will the government start installing spyware in our homes so they can monitor our actions? Light up a cigarette in your home... go online to play poker... smack your baby's hand to keep him from playing with the stove....a knock on the door and off to the slammer you go!!!
Lets step back a bit folks. Where is this going to stop? I've about had it with "Big Brother" telling me what I can and cannot do in my home. I sure hope many of you are also getting fed up. I also sure hope the owner of the "politically astute black and white cat" goes back to cleaning out the litter box and leaves the diaper changing to those that have daily experience with the job.

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I believe that spanking is an essential part of raising a child. Should a child be whipped with a belt? No. But scripture does say "spare the rod, spoil the child".
One argument most likely used in this is the exposure to violence and higher potential of a child becoming violent at an older age. Need we be reminded of Ephesians 6:12? We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against powers of darkness. This shows us that there are more variables to consider in a child's demeaner.
Am I a parent? Not yet. However, scripture makes it very clear that we should not spare our children of spanking just because we think it will harm them mentally in the longrun.
An example in another area: prayer and bible reading in schools. I was not around when it happened, or atleast don't remember, but I guarantee you a similar argument was used...by allowing the diversity to be "toned down" so to speak, it may decrease violence in schools by removing a catalyst. Well...if you do a study comparing the before and after you'll see violence in schools has severely increased. Same concept. If you are not allowed to spank your child, but only reprimand according to time-outs and such, to what end is this going to meet?
To those who support this, I understand your stance and I am not seeking to knock it down. The arguments, atleast to some extent, are somewhat valid. But are we willing to visit the sins of some on everyone? What will be the final outcome of this act? Just a few things I believe we should consider.

In His Service,
Chaplain (CPT) Robert S Tolson
Executive Officer
Maryland Brigade, 2nd Division
United States Corps of Chaplains
www.uscochq.com

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My husband and I have a 5 year old and an 18 month old. We have never spanked our children. I was spanked when I was younger and have negative feelings towards it. My mother said she also regrets spanking. She said she just did not no any other ways and it's what everyone else was doing at that time. I have very well behaved children and many comment on how well behaved they are. My husband and I use time outs and we get on their level to explain why what they did was wrong and what they should've done instead. My 5 year old knows not to go in the street and has known since he was 2. We explained the dangers to him and showed him an appropriate boundary. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for hitting your child. If you're consistent with your discipline it is true that it is effective. Any one who says otherwise is just being lazy to try or find a solution. Parents who spank need help in finding other methods and controlling their OWN impulses.

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