The difference between discipline and abuse?

It's necessary to hit a 14 year old? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I hated being hit and I will never, ever hit my child. Instead, I will model respect for him and others. Then hopefully, he will learn to show respect too. It *always* begins with the parent.

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My great aunt had seven kids. She was the nicest, most patient person in the world and her kids were so happy and pretty well-adjusted, high achievers, if a bit spoiled. I'm pretty sure she didn't use corporal punishment. UNTIL . . . her 4th daughter grew into a really difficult teenager. I remember hearing, with shock, of this sweet mom throwing a ketchup bottle at this out-of-control daughter's head.

I'm not saying it's good to let loose like that, but moms are only human, and some kids really push their moms over the edge. Yes, the mom is the adult, but still only human. I think it's a lot to expect superhuman patience from mere humans, particularly when we've pressured them to raise their kids in a relatively permissive manner (by historical standards).

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And on your comment that you never resorted to hitting. Are you sure that was the best thing for your daughter? Your daughter had lots of issues - isn't it possible that different discipline choices might have led to better results? I'm not saying for sure they would - just saying that corporal punishment is a legitimate choice, and it's a bit hypocritical to imply that it's always a worse choice than the ones you made. Especially since the comment may be a bit offensive to those who do choose corporal punishment.

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okay, so you don't agree with corporal punishment....that's fine and that's your right, but please don't go around making comments like "That's not discipline, that is loss of self-control." B/c that's not the case with most parents that use corporal punishments.

I use it and I'm not ashamed that I do...I grew up with it and turned up just fine. Is it the only tool I use as a parent? Nope. Nor is it a tool I use always last resort (sometimes it's the first). Do I use it when I am angry or really mad? NOPE, b/c my dad did and that wasn't fair...I go and count to 10 or tell my child that we will talk in a little bit, mommy has to think about it...

Corporal punishment isn't for everyone and there are a lot of children that respond to other methods and turn out great, but then again, it's not used a lot anymore and look how many children are running wild and "free".....and that's just my opinion...

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I think it is never right to hit a child. I know that it can be hard sometimes not to lose control and I understand that we are all human and we all lose our patience sometimes, but to choose to hit your child as a way to control them is short-sighted at best. What happens when your teenager is bigger and stronger than you and you've relied on violence to control them all your life? No wonder people find teenagers so difficult if that is how they raised them! Quite apart from the obvious lack of respect that you demonstrate towards your child when you choose to hit them. The hypocrisy that it isn't alright for an adult to hit but it is OK to hit a child, what sort of message are you sending your kids? That children are worth less than adults? We have a responsibility to stop the cycle of violence towards children and the "it happened to me and I'm alright" argument is so flawed- you're not alright, you're hitting your kids! There are alternatives to this Victorian child rearing strategy, it requires a lot more thought and patience, but it's worth it because you and your child can be equals not enemies.

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I'll admit it: my husband and I spank. Our daughter is 4.5, and the few times we've used it we've felt no guilt. More often, we use a smack in the hand, and it works for us.

Our children are neither our enemies, nor are they our equals. They are our offspring. This family does not think discipline or corporal punishment are dirty concepts.

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There IS a difference between discipline and abuse. I grew up being swatted with a carved out 2x4 paddle if I did something really bad. Was I an unruley teen? Umm no. I respected my parents as I got to my teens and tried my best to please them and have a good relationship with them and still do to this day. My parents and I are extremely close and not everyone can say that (being spanked as a child or not). I don't believe it's the spankings or whatever form of discipline really, it's the reason you're being punished that shapes your values and beliefs. My daughter is too young to think about discipline right now, but if she gets older and we've tried the time outs and grounding and none of those work, she will be spanked. I'd rather give her one smack on the behind with my hand than stand there and verbally abuse her like some parents do.

This is like debating bottle vs. breast, everyone has their own opinion but we need to just leave people choose whichever works best for THEM not YOU. If it is clearly just abuse not discipline, then I'd say there's a problem.

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"are neither our enemies, nor are they our equals. They are our offspring"

I think that my daughter has the same human rights that I do: the right to be free from violent coercion. This is what I mean by equality.

On a personal level I would like my daughter never to feel physically unsafe around me. That no matter how terrible a thing she has done I'm there for her and we can sort it out together.

"This is like debating bottle vs. breast, everyone has their own opinion but we need to just leave people choose whichever works best for THEM not YOU."

No, I really think that is a false comparison. The way we feed our children in early infancy will have far less impact on the world than teaching them casual violence from an early age will.


I think that if we are to cut the root out of the violence infecting our world it's got to start with teaching children that violence is wrong- ALWAYS. Not violence is wrong when you do it but when authority figures do it, THEN it's OK. Is it any wonder that people are perfectly willing to uncaringly sit and watch their governments commit atrocities given the message they have been raised with?

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Spanking, done correctly, is not violence. That is the main misunderstanding. Done correctly, it is not done in anger and it is the ONLY type of discipline that works for SOME children/temperaments.

Hitting your child in frustration is violence. Spanking a child, without anger or injury, is discipline. Confusing or equating the two is wrong.

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I highly disagree with the author of this post. I spank my son. I've probably gone over the line a few times and no, I'm not proud of it. Most of the time a time out works. Other times he insists on pushing me as far as he possibly can and sometimes, time out isn't enough. Please don't give blanket statements about people you don't know. I used to be a person who thought ABUSE every time I heard a child cry in a house or saw a slap or spank. Now I'm a mom and I have sympathy for those families now. I know how it feels. I don't do it often and only when NOTHING else will work. Ironically, it works wonders a little swat on the tush and he's over it sooner than a time out and enjoys the rest of his day. I had a lady stop and yell at me for spanking him once. I dared her to come over and say it again but of course she drove off on her bike. Don't judge me when you don't know me or my family.

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I'd like to reply to some of the other comments.

I have to realize this myself that being a parent is not being a friend. You cannot be both. I think it's more important to be a parent and the friendship will build as they get older. I was never spanked as a child, and to be honest.. I think maybe I should have been.

I don't like it being called hitting. To me hitting is doing something to deliberately hurt someone. That is not my intention with spanking. Kids are not hurt by spanking no matter what you hear! If you're playing around and swatting the butt in a playful way, they laugh. Do the exact same thing when you're disciplining and oh, the drama!


Kids today are more out of control then ever. Perhaps it's because there's less spanking going on. Food for thought!

(reminder that I almost never spank but I do do it and I'm not ashamed of it.)

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I agree spanking your child - done right - is not a bad thing.

My mother abused me as a child. There is no question about that. She beat be with a wooden spoon until brusies formed, neglected my sisters and I, once she threw me across a room by my hair. One of the worse things done was accusing my father and uncle of raping me and the courts ordered a rape kit for me - i was never raped. But all those things have left me scared for life and I have had a hard time getting over alot of it. Mind you this all happened when I was young - from when i can remember, age 6 until i finally stopped visitng her, age 11.

I have no respect for her and I never will.

I live with my dad and up until a few weeks ago the worse thing that happened between us was an occational argument. It never got physical although the things he said hurt, it was better then being beaten. But then one day he got drunk (like usual ...) and I talked back. He slaped me across the face. In that moment I lost all respect for him - but of course it didn't stop there - he beat the crap out of me.

I am saying all this because to all these parents because you need to know that form a childs point of view if you need to justify the fact that it isn't abuse, it probably is.

But even if you still believe it's not - what do you think your child is thinking?

Do you think they are going to have respect for you? They are going to FEAR and LOSE the respect they had.

It was a sad day when I realized that my mother and father both abused me and never really loved me. It was a hard thing to go through but I had and still have a wonderful boyfriend who has helped me through it all.

One more thing about your kids - if you hit them and you say you are doing it for their own good. What good can come of having to teach your kid a lesson by beating them?

Also I don't mean spanking - slapping a kid on the hand or lightly spanking them on the butt once is not abuse in my eyes. Throwing things at them, beating them to the point that they get bruises or marks, anything like that - that is abuse.

Also just remember there is a thing call verbal abuse, it hurts just as much as the physical kind.

Mind you all - I don't mean to step on anyones toes or anything liek that, this is simply a view from a teenage girl who has been abused in many different ways, all through my life, by both parents. This is what normally goes through a childs head.

That's all I wanted to say,

Thank you.

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Thank you for having the courage to share Janette. I for one appreciate your point of view. Take care.

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Many of you have made very valid points on both side's. But there is a point that many are forgetting, especially the non-violent, non-spanking side, and that is that violence is not necessarily always physical in nature. Violence can be verbal, it can emotional, and in those instances it will be much more painful, and much longer lasting, than a physical beating will. Time-outs and such are great discipling tools, just like a spanking can be a great discipling tool, and just like spanking if done wrong time-outs can take a turn for the worse. After all, putting little Jessica in time-out, which just so happens to be in a dark closet for several hours, for spilling kool-aid on her dress, I would find to be a bit excessive. Just like the mother in this article, hitting your 14 year old daughter with a Backpack!? That was a bit excessive I would say. The point is people just have to remember that there is a good and bad side to everything.

Now me personally I am all for a good spanking as a discpline tool, But I am also of the mind that if done right and in the right situations, is one tool that is not needed often...unless of course you were like me and just plain rotten =D. Let me tell you something though, I love my parents, and I respect them dearly. It was a respect they earned, yes thats what I said they Earned it, by their actions and their choices. Yaa, I got my butt wooped, boy did I ever, and ya sometimes my mom (she was the main spanker, dad was reserved for the REALLY bad stuff heh) was angry when she did it, and we are not talking a light tap on the butt, we are talking red hand prints here, but you know what? I am glad she did, because it let me know the effect of what I was doing and how it made her feel. Kids understand actions much much more than they will understand words. Those spankings let me know my mom and dad meant business and that when they said something they meant it and went through with it. They showed me the worth of their word.

A little clarification here if I may before I finish. Discipling is NOT about making your kids Fear you, it is NOT about Controlling them, or making them feel worthless. It is about accountability and consequence. Pay attention to your kids, show them that you love them and that you are there for them, but also dont be afraid to show them that what you say goes. You are the parent not them, and too many parents dont seem to get that these days. Too many parents are trying to be a friend to their kids, and treat them as "equals"...thats great and all but you are not their friend, and they are not "equal" to you, yes they have their own wants and thoughts and dreams, encourage that, help them find their own voice, but to say they are "equal" is to put pressure on them to be something they are not ready for. Parents need to understand you are their guardian, their teacher, it is your job to SHOW them their actions have consequences, and to prepare them for when they are "equals".

Yes I was spanked as a child, and yes I turned out pretty decent, I am the "big brother" to all of my friends and family, because I show them I care about them, but am not afraid to say what needs to be said. Helping people, makes me feel good, not only about myself, but by helping to bring some amount of happiness to this world.
I am glad my parents had the courage to stand up for what they thought and felt, spanking my butt if needed, because of that, I know what it means to stand up for the ideals I hold and feel.

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Andrew, I'm sure you are ok as an adult and you and your parents are close. But, read over this and let me know what you think.

I am one of those who were spanked, not a lot, but my dad did all of it (except the time my grandmother chased me around with a fan belt, but that's another story). At first I spanked my kids, actually more than my dad did me. But...I had a reversal of opinion. Now, I consider spanking an effective tool in the same way I any physical intervention would be. The problem is it primarily serves to focus much more than teach. I know parents want to believe spankings will teach children something, and in fact it “teaches” them pretty much nothing, but the child does “learn” a number of things: not all positive.

I will presume you are not abusive in your discipline, and you try alternative methods too. There are times when they are very young (I'm not going to get into the ages here) kids need to be focused on their actions when your words are not being heard. But remember, the purpose of parenting is to help children develop into capable adults, not obedient children. In order to do this, I believe kids learn correct behavior best from the consequences of their actions when those consequences are related to the actions. When kids are spanked they tend to see it as something to be avoided; not so much as a consequence of their actions. I admit spanking is effective for stopping behaviors due to the fear of getting spanked again. What it seems not to do is stop the behavior because the child sees it as the wrong thing to do… period! This is the major failure of spanking: it works to a limited extent, and lots of parents are then satisfied at that point. Therefore, the largest benefit of spanking is generally satisfying the parent’s needs with an allusion of effectiveness. When adults defend their corporal actions with comments like, “My daddy whipped my butt a lot, and I turned out ok!” they leave off what I understand should be at the end of that statement, “in spite of it.” It is not a long stride from that to this, “My daddy burned me with cigarettes on the butt a lot, and I turned out ok… in spite of it!” The lessons are the same: don’t repeat the actions unless you want to get an injured butt.

Look at it this way, when the result of most rule breaking is spanking, none of the failures are then separately and logically related to the punishment; instead, spankings are seen as a reaction, rather than a response. It seems logical kids would eventually see the parent as the cause of the punishment rather than their own decisions.

Interestingly, I see the same problem in lots of areas for adults. For instance, if you “break a rule” and get a speeding ticket, at the least you will get “spanked” by having to pay money. People drive fast… look at radar detectors sales... because there is no obvious logical relationship between the crime and the punishment. When caught speeding, if the punishment was the loss of that car for a period of time, or the application of a “governor” to restrict the speed on the car to 25 mph for a couple of days or weeks, the driving habits of the public would self-adjust. The response to the crime would be directly related to and the result of the driver’s decision. The lesson is driven home (no pun intended) because the transgressor is likely to see their decision and subsequent action as the cause of the punishment, then, based on that connection, they have an opportunity to adjust their decision making process. Compared to the absurd act of a cop bending you over and delivering an actual spanking, taking the car for a week would be much more effective.

Who owns the consequences? I’ve been accused of splitting hairs here, but no, this is not a distinction without a difference. This is about your kid’s perspective as to whether they own the consequences, or think you do.


A personal example (after I stopped spanking): once my daughter came home a little after the “get your butt home time”, and there was a rule about late arrivals: if late with no reason, you don’t go out the next weekend… period. When she arrived home, I expressed relief she was ok, gave her a hug, and said goodnight. There was no anger, no yelling, no blood pressure issues, and that was just her; I had no reason to be upset either. The rule was the rule, there were no exceptions, and we both knew it. In the morning, I said to her, “You must be sad about being locked in this weekend, and I understanding you must have been late because of something really important.”, and I left it at that. To my amazement, she was hardly ever late again. As she got older, the rule just faded away, because for kids, most rules should help them learn to self-regulate and develop internal controls, judgment, honesty, and integrity. During this process the need for rules is reduced, and most virtually vanish because of their replacement by mutual confidence and trust.

Spanking a child with the expectation the child will learn to not repeat the mistake has limited effectiveness because it removes the opportunity to learn from their mistake. I believe an occasional spanking will have little effect on the eventual adult, particularly if done without anger (I am not against being angry and letting your kids know). But, I am convinced there are other, more effective methods to raise adults. Give it a try; remember, your goal is not so much to enforce rules for your kids as it is to help them develop the behaviors, and attitudes which support them doing the right thing when thinking on their own.

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Ummm, actually spaking a child is "punishment" - not "discipline"

I just had to throw that in there because so many people confuse the ideas of discipline and punishment.

Discipline - n. training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character; orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior; a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity


compare this to the definition of

Punishment - n. suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution; a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure; severe, rough, or disastrous treatment


Let's reflect on that for just a moment. Suffering, pain or loss that serves as retribution. Is that necessary? Is PUNISHMENT necessary for a child to learn DISCIPLINE?

Well, what is the ultimate role of a parent? Many parents aim for OBEDIENCE or at least COMPLIANCE. How do you best achieve that result? Well, punishment is a quick way of getting those results with many children. The threat of a punishment - a firm "no!," a time out, losing TV or toys, a grounding, a spanking, a beating - whatever the punishment is, if it causes enough SUFFERING, eventually the child will decide the potential for suffering is too great a risk, and so, he or she will comply. It all basically depends on what the child perceives as suffering, and the way the child analyzes the cost of that suffering. For example - is a spanking WORTH me stealing those cookies. Is losing my TV priviledge WORTH me ignoring mom's order to clean my room now. That's how kids' minds work. In the end, what has been taught, when punishment is used to control a child? Has the child learned to control himself? Has he learned a "value" - or has he learned that there are outside factors controlling him, and he is really powerless - he must OBEY and COMPLY or else he will SUFFER.

On the other hand, when a child is being "disciplined" - the goal is to teach him to CHOOSE the higher moral ground. I don't want to steal those cookies because Mom will be upset with me. Mom will be sad. I don't want mom to be sad, I want her to be happy. I won't steal the cookies. (yes, I realize most children do NOT think this way - which is why parents resort to punishment in order to force or coerce the child to their way (the RIGHT way) of thinking!)

Hmmm, so what to do? Well, it is possible to raise a child without EVER punishing him. But it is extremely difficult. Because, parents know, sometimes we can't reason with a child, sometimes we can't count on the child to take the moral high ground. Sometimes we can't explain to him that running into the street is a bad choice because he could die, and if he dies, that would make mommy and daddy sad. No, we have to FORCE him to comply - You do NOT run into the street or you will SUFFER! I will MAKE you OBEY - if you run into the street, you will be SPANKED. It will HURT. - the child FEARS the punishment, so the child complies with the rule. Has he internalized the rule? No. Can he be counted on to OBEY the rule if the external control (the parent) is no longer there? NO he can't be. The parent must be there in order to ENFORCE the rule (punish!) - or the rule has no standing.

Why do you hit your break when you see a cop? You don't want to be punished! If you were told - guaranteed - that there would be NO cops along the road for a 60 mile stretch, would you speed? Or would you obey the speed limit because its the "right thing to do" - Of course, you and every other red-blooded American would SPEED. Without the external control factor, there is no risk of punishment, so you do not bother to follow the rules. Have you internalized the rule? Do you obey out of your high moral character, or do you obey out of FEAR of the punishment (a ticket, a fine, having to go to court, loss of license, etc - the adult forms of a "spanking")

I guess I am rambling, but it surprises me how many people confuse discipline and punishment. The goal of any parent should be to guide their child to make the right choices not because he is AFRAID of punishment, but because the child is a decent person who follows the morals and values of society because its the RIGHT thing to do. Your goal is to raise a SELF-DISCIPLINED human being. HOW you attain those results is your own business. CAN it be done without ever striking your child? Absolutely, but is takes more time and work on the parents' part. Can it be done without ever punishing a child? Yes, but the parent would have to do a frightening amount of work, because the child's environment would have to be set up in such a way that he can never fail to do the right thing. Tough to do.

Does punishment HURT a child? Yes, briefly. In the long-run - usually, No. We all are 'punished' every day. Wear the wrong shoes, you might get a blister. Swat at a bee, you might get stung. Drive too fast, you might get a ticket (or be in an accident) Backtalk your mom, you might get a time out (or a spanking.) but remember, punishment is all about control -- Your ultimate goal is to make the child want to comply with rules and norms because it is the RIGHT thing to do, not because Dad will get out his belt and start swatting. Remember, if you spank - eventually, your child has to make a connection and choose on his own to do what is right and what is expected. Otherwise, you will ALWAYS have to spank in order to make him behave. Do you really want to have to spank your kid when he's 50?

To be honest, MOST of us, through one way or another, behave and comply with society's rules (laws) out of fear. We have (most of us have) internalized the rules such as "Do not kill other human beings" because our moral being tells us it is wrong. When my neighbor is a jerk, I don't avoid killing him because I am afraid of the death penalty - I avoid killing him because it is not in my moral being TO kill someone - I wouldn't even think of it! BUT at the same time, most of us do not follow traffic laws because we know its morally right to follow them - we follow traffic laws because we FEAR being caught and punished. Society depends on PUNISHMENT to keep many people in line. This, I believe, is directly related to the way parents raise children. We don't necessarily raise kids to be kind, decent human beings because its the right thing to do - we PUNISH them when they act out towards one another. We give them time outs when they hit each other in preschool, we suspend them when they fight in elementary school, we jail them when they attack one another in high school. Kids who do not fear punishment are the ones who become out of control and need to be punished (in our jails) when they become adults. I find myself thinking that if we focused more on DISCIPLINE and less on PUNISHMENT when we raise our children, our society would have to focus less on PUNISHMENT with adults as well....

By the way - have I ever spanked my child? Yes. I hated it, but I thought it was necessary. I believe that sometimes - truly not often, but only very rarely - it is necessary to control a child - to FORCE a child to obey and comply, for whatever reason. In my case, it usually has to do with the child's safety - one time it was for getting into a bottle of pills after he was told many times not to touch pills. He didn't comply, so he was spanked. I hated it - but he feared the spanking enough to never do it again.
But for the most part, I believe parents have GOT to get away from the idea of trying to CONTROL their child and forcing him or her to OBEY! I truly believe it is the cause of a great many ills in our adult society!

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