When is it OK to take children away from their parents?
Categories: In the news, Media, That's entertainment
I've been following the story of the removal of 416 children from an extremist religious compound in Texas with a mixture of shock, horror, and sympathy. And the more I read, the more conflicted I become. In the end, the anguish is with the children, and that's what makes all of this so much more horrifying.I picked up this week's People magazine with a picture of a young Mother walking with her two children, the weight of the world in her frown lines. 416 children were separated from their Moms because of a cloud of suspicion about the sexual abuse of young girl's.
Well, evidently it was a lot more serious than suspicion. I cannot imagine that a State would take such drastic measures if they did not have solid proof of abuse. But as I read the article in the magazine -- and the allegations by the grieving Mothers that their children were taken in a sweeping motion as a protest of the polygamist lifestyle rather than actual abuse -- I began feeling really awful for them. No matter their lifestyle, they miss their children. No matter what, there are hundreds of young children confused and missing their parents. Should authorities really have taken all of the children away, or did these Moms and their babies deserve to be evaluated on a case by case basis? Was that even possible, given the communal way this religious sect lives?
I just finished watching a video (below) of Meredith Viera interviewing three of the sect's women, accompanied by their lawyer. The deadness in these women's eyes, and the strangeness of their words and actions dully affirms for me that the authorities did the right thing. This is not a normal situation that can be assessed on an individual family basis, because these families are all in it together. I don't think the authorities had any choice but to remove all of the children in light of the hesitancy and strangeness about providing forthright information.
I am so sad for them all.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Melissa 4-22-2008 @ 12:25PM
I too feel the conflict. It pains me to think of a small child being taken from the only home they've ever known and put into a strange situtation. But I hear reports and interviews from people that left the sect and they talk of the things they do to the children. One woman said they hold a new baby's face under running water, pulling them in and out, until they learn not to cry. The majority of these folks were born to this life and don't know any different. They have absolutely no exposure to any kind of media and have no idea what goes on outside the compound. One woman didn't know who George Bush was! They very well could be abusing and torturing children but they don't know it's abuse because it is "normal" where they live.
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ame s 4-22-2008 @ 12:37PM
I was disturbed by one lady stating that their children loved them, therefore they couldn't possibly be abused. That statement shows how far removed from reality these people are.
I would have been curious to hear the answers if these 3 women had been asked how old they were when they had their first child or how old the youngest pregnant "woman" is at the ranch.
In my opinion, it is abuse to raise girls to believe there is nothing wrong with getting "married" and giving birth before they are 16.
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Sabrina 4-22-2008 @ 12:50PM
I highly doubt it was necessary to remove each and every single child from the FLDS compund. I do not think that every single mother there is abusive. I can't doubt that some might be, because seriously in a gathering of that many families in the outside world, there'd be one or two abusive families as well. In reference to the deadness of eyes and expression....well, I'm going to sound like a know-it-all and probably get flamed, but if you did a bit more research on the FLDS and plural marriage, you'd realize this isn't an uncommon reaction to highly emotional things.
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Jessica 4-22-2008 @ 1:27PM
But, Sabrina, we're not talking about the possibility of one or two families committing acts of abuse, we're talking about the entire community allowing underage girls to be wed and raped.
Jessica 4-22-2008 @ 1:32PM
I think that the authorities did the right thing. Is it the easiest decision for us, mothers, on the outside, to handle? No. But empathy is surely our weakness as much as it is our blessing.
Regardless, the authorities had no way of knowing, without first raiding and getting material, what children were being forced into marriage and rape, and which weren't. Sweeping the entire place and removing all children was, in my opinion, the best way to both protect the children and gain useful information.
As this situation gets sorted out, some childen will no doubt be placed back with their families. Is that fair? No and it will certainly damage each and every one of those children. But, I wager, it would be worse trauma to be forced to marry at 14 and raped repeatedly, by your "husband", while your own mother, pregnant with you, her third, at 16, looks on.
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ltmslov 4-22-2008 @ 1:35PM
While watching other news coverage they discussed that one of the girls is thirteen and pregnant. Some were 15 or 16 and had multiple children. I do agree that every parent or family in that compound probably isn't abusive but when a good person or a community believes it is acceptable to allow a 12 or 13 year to be impregnated something is wrong and it needs to be evaluated. And, no matter how much you love your children if YOU are allowing your 12 or 13 yr old to have spiritual marriage to an adult and become impregnated than you are neglecting her and abusing her. Just because she can get pregnant it does NOT mean she emotionally or even physically ready for that responsibility, not to mention the fright involved in a prearranged situation such as those marriages. I don't care if the parents say the daughters "can" so no to the marriage, you know a child in such a community would not refuse their elders. I just truly hope that these babies/children are able to grow emotionally and physically healthy in all they have been put through with the sect and the state.
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ame s 4-22-2008 @ 5:11PM
Great post!
kate 4-22-2008 @ 1:55PM
I feel terrible for the children; they have no idea why they've been taken away from their mothers and life as they know it. But there's no other way; the authorities have to gather evidence (dna etc.) and ensure the children's safety.
This isn't just about child abuse; it's an entire culture built around the belief that women have no value other than to breed. Generation after generation of girls/women are indoctrinated with the belief that the only way to get to heaven is to marry whoever the church leaders tell them to, and to "keep sweet" which means they are not allowed to think or question anything. The ONLY way to stop the abuse is to disband the church and frankly, that's just not going to happen. They will go into hiding and it will go on and on and on.
Yes, it's lewd and disgusting and shameful, but it's all about their right to pursue religion. This arguement goes on all over the world; wars have been (and are being) fought over religious differences.
As an avowed atheist, it makes me sick....
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eugene 4-22-2008 @ 2:22PM
Why is it if you want to "adopt" a dog or a cat or even a rabbit from the local shelter you are questioned exhaustively as to whether or not you can provide the proper care and environment to raise and nurture that animal yet, any two people with semen and egg can produce human people?
These children should not have been taken from their parents ONLY BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO REPRODUCE.
I strongly believe that adults should have the right to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm other people. Raising children in such an environment, in my mind, constitutes abuse.
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Amy 4-23-2008 @ 12:21PM
Who gets to decide who has the right to have children and who doesn't? You? Me? George Bush?
Look up the term "eugenics" and read about what happened in the early 20th century when people began to apply your philosophy (that some people are "worthy" of being parents while others aren't), and then get back to me on whether or not you still hold the same beliefs.
Amy @ http://prettybabies.blogspot.com
Nicola 4-22-2008 @ 2:59PM
I have a problem with the fact that, at this point, we're getting a lot of hearsay and not a lot of evidence. "I heard that they (insert weird ritual or rumour)..." has been a common one. Or "They let teenage girls marry much older men...". Well, my husband is twenty years my senior, when I was a teenage girl I had a relationship with an even older man, and though it is not commonly accepted in OUR society, many teenagers are reproductively viable and hormonally ready to take on the role of a child bearing adult. It wouldn't work for us. We don't "approve". Fair enough.
I simply do not believe that this should have been handled "en masse". Every family is entitled to have specific charges laid against them, evidence brought forward, and a court adjudicated hearing. I realise that we are not comfortable with polygamy, with teenage wives and mothers, with people who are consumed by faith. But we must apply the same rules to these families as we would apply to allegations brought against any other American citizen.
Where there has been abuse, there must be punishment, sentencing, and appropriate measures taken to protect the children. But, first, there must be some evidence of abuse above and beyond multiple wives and teenage mothers. No, I do not agree with this lifestyle, but then, they wouldn't agree with mine either. That's just my unpopular opinion at this point in the reporting.
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Jennifer 4-22-2008 @ 4:16PM
I understand what you are saying but part of the problem is that the members of the FLDS compound are not helping in any way to get things organized so that each individual family situation can be addressed. Because of the constant and deliberate switching of names and family affiliations they have not been able to tell who are members of what families. If they have nothing to hide why all of the lies? I personally have no problem with the concept of polygamy- to each his own. I do have a problem with marrying a 12 or 13 year old off so that she can be a submissive breeder. I also have no problem with a younger girl marrying an older guy but a line does have to be drawn somewhere on how young that girl can be. If they have an issue with this then they can go live somewhere where it isn't illegal...I am sure there are other countries out there that would allow it...but they won't because then they would not have access to our welfare system to support themselves. Amazing how that works, huh...
Mrshines 5-09-2008 @ 11:13AM
Thank you Nicola for having some sense! There is this thing called the constitution and it says people are innocent until proven guilty. Do we really want a government that can just barge in and take away children because they have suspicions? No real evidence? I mean, they have admitted that the phone call that started this whole thing may have been a hoax-they are still trying to determine its validity. You have to look past the weird religion, weird outfits, their diferent way of speaking-this is America. People are different.
And thereis a limitation to howlong someone can be held in custody for suspicion of a crime-something like less than one day? How long has it been now and no charges have even been filed- and yet the state has already taken custody away from the mothers. Its disgusting.
Christina 4-22-2008 @ 4:09PM
I think removing the children from their mothers totally sucks (oh so eloquent...) but I also think that the women were put or chose to put themselves in that position and finally the people who started the cult are ultimately responsible for the horror of this situation.
I have not followed it too closely because it made me feel so sad and appalled. I am not sure why but I just could not bear to hear the stories. One thing that bothers me most is that young girls who have no concept of what exactly is right and wrong per say were put into situations that were not right. Some of those men (at least that is what the media was saying early on) were said to be known child predators. It was like a breeding ground for that behavior and made me feel a little sick for the ALL of the children involved (including the young girls who wed and had sex with much older men...)
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Rachel S. 4-22-2008 @ 4:11PM
In many ghetto-type areas in our country, young girls are getting pregnant at very young ages. They drop out of school, and have multiple babies with multiple partners. There is an accepted culture of drug abuse and sexual abuse. Are we going to now raid these areas and take away their children en masse, just because they live in those areas? Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the beliefs and practices of the polygamist group being discussed, but I also strongly believe that you can't suspend peoples rights and rip away their children just because you don't like what they do without any solid evidence. What scares me is that this will set a precedent for government to take children out of homes that don't "tow the line" in terms of what is politically correct.
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Meagan 4-23-2008 @ 12:49AM
I agree. This case terrifies me because everyone's so supportive of the government's right to rip away children from a HUGE group of people based on, so far, very little proof. It's possible that all 400+ children are in fact being endangered, but that needs to be PROVEN on a case by case basis before nursing infants are taken from their mothers, since I've heard NO arguments so far to suggest that pre-pubescent girls or ANY boys are being in any way abused. (Brainwashed, perhaps, but I'm not sure the government gets to make THAT particular judgment).
Mel 4-22-2008 @ 4:39PM
"In many ghetto-type areas in our country, young girls are getting pregnant at very young ages. They drop out of school, and have multiple babies with multiple partners. There is an accepted culture of drug abuse and sexual abuse. Are we going to now raid these areas and take away their children en masse, just because they live in those areas?"
EXCELLENT POINT. The government cherry-picks which "lifestyle choices" are acceptable. Currently, anything "urban" is fine, while anything religious is villified.
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ltmslov 4-22-2008 @ 7:44PM
This comment is in two parts:
First the government, educational system, churches, and social organizations have been attempting to help with the underage pregnancies in ALL areas of America with education and contraception. Unfortunately, you can not always control the hormones of teenagers and their choices but we as a community are trying to help educate them as parents, help them stay in school, assist their children, and approach the issue as a whole.
Secondly, this situation is completely different from teenagers choosing to be promiscuous and becoming pregnant. This is an issue of abuse and rape. This is an issue of 12, 13 and older children being forced (either physically, or mentally) into situations of marriage and/or sex and impregnation . . . not the government choosing who can have children underage and who can't. When the authorities are aware of an of age adult impregnating a child in society as a whole they are still brought to justice, hence the term "statutory rape" which even allows of age girls or boys (still in school) to be placed under that umbrella when a person in authority (teachers, bosses, ect) takes advantage of them whether the child feels that way or not. Once again this is NOT once society seeking to discriminate against another societies way of life, it is about sexual, physical, and mental abuse and neglect. We need to keep our focus.
Jess 4-23-2008 @ 9:11AM
Well said.
d. 4-22-2008 @ 9:03PM
I think that the decision is on a case by case basis.....I work in the field and am very interested to see what happens in this case. There were 5 young women who were actively pregnant or have evidence of giving birth that were under 16 at the time of conception......and they were also invovled in underage marriages. So I do belive that the children were taken for good reason.....that there is abuse being perpetrated against some, but, the beliefs of the community as a whole put all the children at risk for abuse.
I am very curious to see what happens in this case being that there is another similar community called Bountiful in Britsh Columbia in Canada. There was been concerns about that compound as well.
I do feel sorry for the women whose children were taken away. Some of the woman are 4th or 5th generation to that community. So I think that it is hard to have critical thinking when they have not been exposed to anything other then being victims and living a controlled existence and lifestyle.
It certainly is interesting and raises lots of questions.
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