Denmark May Ban Circumcision

Well the problem is your examples are pretty poor. Tongue tied and cleft lips or palettes are congenital birth defects the repair of which can easily fall into the category of medically therapeutic. Being Tongue Tied can (for example) affect feeding, speech, and possibly oral hygiene. Vaccinations are also medically therapeutic, that's a no brainer. I might agree on the ear piercing except that is reversible but I'd say it's still proabably better to wait. Not too sure on abortion, the parents should definatly be involved before 18 that I think would be situation dependent. Haven't given that much tought though.

You've chosen some pretty poor examples. Being tongue tied and having a cleft lip or pallet is considered a congenital anomaly and easily falls with in the bound of a medically therapeutic procedure. Especially considering that, being tongue tied for example, can have an effect on speech, feeding, and potentially oral hygiene. Vaccinations are a no-brainer clearly medically therapeutic in all cases.

I might be with you on ear piercing except ear rings can be removed, the holes will tend to close up, and it isn't as damaging as a circumcision so it is reversible.

I haven't given the abortion thing much thought but it should proabably be the case that the parents are notified if the girl is under 18.

Thank you for your understanding firas. Sure there are a lot of other problems in the world to worry about, too many for any one person so we select our causes. Since I feel this falls squarely in the bounds of human rights, and involves children, I feel it is a cause worth my time. I understand if others think differently but we all take on different problems.

Firas:

While you understand what Joe is saying, you are ignoring that he is labeling this a children's rights issue. Joe, I am really amused you think this is the most obvious children's rights issue to comment on. I hope you are not practicing law if you have this thought as one would find a plethora of more pressing concerns in the juvenile justice venue, all of which do not presume to ignore long standing religious values and unrelated but associated medical evidence regarding the value of those practices in preventing long term serious disease exposure.

Rachel:

Just because there are other problems of greater severity doesn't mean we should ignore the lesser ones; these are sometimes easier to resolve. I am surprised that you find the potential suffering of infant boys amusing. Circumcision is not without risk and has virtually no medical benefit to 99.99% of boys. For a doctor to perform a medically non-therapeutic surgery on a non-consenting individual is unethical at best and could quite rightfully be considered a crime.

Just so there is no confusion, a medical-benefits or "therapeutic" justification requires that:

1. Overall the medical benefits should outweigh the risks and harms of the procedure required to obtain them.

2. That this procedure is the only reasonable way to obtain these benefits.

3. That these benefits are necessary to the well-being of the child.

None of these conditions are fulfilled for routine infant circumcision. So I'll have to ask you to clarify this statement: "preventing long term serious disease exposure"

I've had this conversation both here and in Europe. The differences is that in Europe, and other places where circumcision is practically unheard of, nobody ever describes these problems. The medical circumcision rates is very very low which tells me that we are doing something wrong. And it proabably has to do with the fact that circumcision has been common in North America for about two generations.

I don't get into vaccine debates ever. That is a different issue, routine vaccines have a medically therapeutic purpose, but routine circumcision does not. I am aware of the ring thing, cutting is still involved and if you want to know what that might feel like, wrap a rubber band around your finger until it turns black. Pick a finger you can live without. BTW, at least one boy died from that procedure in your very country (province of Ontario) last year.

That would be a more compelling argument if the people who practice FGM - aka "female circumcision" - didn't make the *same one*.

And yet, here I am, all my body parts attached.

Joe, my "very own country" isn't Canada. I'm an American.

My apologies I thought I read you were in Canada. I can point to deaths in the US too if it makes a difference.

Joy, you have an agenda, because now you have to defend your decision to cut off part of your son's penis. Yes, it was part of his penis. Amputating perfectly normal healthy sexual tissue from non-consenting minors is unethical. Would you cut off the skin from around your daughter's clitoris? After all, it would have the same benefits - lower risk of vulvar cancer, better hygiene, and according to doctors in Indonesia, a lower risk of urinary tract infections.

You've got to be kidding me right? Infections are rare?? Why do you think older people and late teens need to get this done? Mild soap?? I'm talking in the 70's. People didn't talk about this. Do you think having an infection in your penis doesn't hurt and throb every time you move isn't painful? Now think of this happening every few months never mind your wife having bladder and yeast infections that you gave her. I don' t see how you can't see this isn't best done as a baby. It may be painful on some and not on others but you have to look at this long term.

I also realize this is done as "tradition" in some countries and different cultures. My dad was born in Canada where they didn't do this like in the USA and I can tell you, many of my older uncles and cousins as well as my dad wished they'd had it done. It's a constant pain with most of them.

Of course they're rare. Most of the men in the world are intact and never have them. You'll need more than anecdotal evidence to establish that they're common, because we only hear the anecdotres about the infections, never about their absence. (I'm afraid I can't say anything about the apparently high incidence of preputial infection in your family without seeming to cast aspersions on your family.) As for giving her bladder and yeast infections, it takes two to tango, and he's at risk of her giving them right back to him. So should we be cutting bits off her (it might work, too)?

You're absolutely right that circumcision spread under cover of the taboo about talking about anything sexual. As you say, they didn't talk about it - just cut it off. But now we can talk about it, and it will wither and die in the sunshine of good information.

joseph jozwiak: if men find, or think, that women will find them more attractive with less penis, they are always free to have it done. (With circumcision now running at 55% in the US, that unfamiliarity factor will soon be gone.) But if for any reason or none they want to have it all, cutting them as babies has removed their right to that option.

SLT said: "His quality of life was severely improved and yes, they came out, and yes his tubes are now fine without the inserted drains, but imagine 3 more years of that in the meantime, it's cruel. But I was judged. Imagine not having the choice?"

In this case you would always have the choice because there was a therapeutic need. It's quite a different situation.

SLT said: "We don't all agree, imagine not having the choice like these poor people in Denmark."

They're not going to miss it because like most Europeans virtually nobody circumcises there. Secular circumcision is only common in North America though the number have been in a fast decline in Canada and a slow decline in the US. In most other countries, excluding the US, it's even hard to find a doctor willing to do it to a child. This is an idea floated by child advocacy groups, ethics groups, and the local medical societies not some rouge government bureaucrat looking to grab more control.

How about we stop cutting up baby bays and teach them to pull back the foreskin when they clean it. Also....lets push condoms....I'm pretty sure there's a lot of circumcised men spreading HIV.