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Autism isn't the only issue with vaccines.

Also, please compare the list of vaccines you received to the list that children are expected to receive by KG now. It is a lot different. And not just autism, but a lot of other childhood disorders are on the rise. But even assuming vaccines are not associated with any of those now-common disorders, that doesn't mean it's better to give all those vaccines to a little child.

Only a few parents are against vaccinating per se. Many, however, are against today's vaccine policy, which (in our opinion) does not give enough weight to (a) the side effects that they consider "minor" and (b) the benefits of leaving nature alone.

For example, since measles and chicken pox are far more dangerous to adults than to children, parents should be allowed to wait until their kids reach that age when it is actually dangerous before they vaccinate. That way, if a child gets chicken pox at 5, his body can deal with it and that will be the end of it. If he reaches 10 without catching the pox, his parents might decide it's wise to get the vaccination. Any adult can also decide to get the vaccinations that his parents did not choose for him. Many adults today theoretically need booster shots but don't choose to get them. Adults are relying on the policy to vaccinate tiny 1-year-olds with a combination of toxins which have been proven to threaten the developing central nervous system, rather than taking responsibility for their own health. Yet nobody is up in arms about adult vaccines. It's poor policy and parents should not be forced into it.

Exactly what vaccines have been CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN to threaten the central nervous system? Because according to the WHO (World Health Organization), there is no direct link between vaccines and interferring with development. I'm more inclined to believe them, since they are not all US scientists or drug companies looking to make money, but concerned physicians.

To answer your question, the MMR most definitely does cause nervous system problems in a significant number of kids. Some temporary, some permanent. Even the literature given to me by a very pro-vaccine pediatrician (whom I no longer patronize) says so, as do many other scientific / medical sources as well as personal experience.

I don't know what motivates the WHO, but I assure you they have an agenda as much as anyone else. There is no such thing as an organization without an agenda. And humans in all organizations are subject to bias. So it's quite possible that they have decided to do some selective reporting.

I am not trying to talk you into or out of anything. I just believe that in America, parents have the right to make parenting decisions, including decisions about vaccinating. The reason the "powers that be" don't like this is because you as a parent might actually consider your child as an individual. And people make different decisions when they consider the individual. Some people consider that a bad thing. I don't.

SKL, the doctor who made the claim that the MMR vaccine had a link to autism was not only proven wrong by three separate organizations, but it was revealed that the funding for his research was paid for by people who were suing the MMR vaccine manufacturers. This unscrupulous doctor manipulated his results in his favor. The MMR vaccine has prevented not only millions of deaths, but cases of disability as well. It has been given for years without a problem, and if the vaccine itself is unchanged, it leads to the belief that there is another factor causing the neurological disorders people are trying to link with it.

I will say that the only people who would have a problem with the MMR are people who cannot have eggs or egg products. Perhaps those are the cases that have the developmental problems.

Elizabeth, I did not say anything about autism, so if your arguments are based on one debunked autism study, they don't apply to my comments. Have you done any research, are you a neurologist, or have you simply decided in your mind that all neurological issues equal autism and none of them are related to MMR vaccines?

I stated an objective fact. I have never heard any actual MD disagree with the statement that the MMR has been documented as the cause of a significant number of neurological problems, including permanent ones. It is very simple. The MMR is a live virus which causes inflammation that often attacks the nervious system to a greater or lesser degree. Most children don't suffer any known lasting effects, but some do. (The MMR does not contain mercury as some other vaccines do, so alleged mercury link does not come into play here.) The risk is not high for all kids, but there are some who are more susceptible, and susceptibility has not been studied nearly enough. In addition, the risk of the MMR decreases as children get older, so that a child getting the vaccine at 24 months is much safer than a child getting it at 12 months. (I have never heard a good reason for them insisting on vaccinating kids at 12 months.)

You think that the MMR has saved millions of lives, but even before they started using the MMR, the number of deaths from these illnesses was pretty small; nowhere near the millions. In recent breakouts, there wasn't a single death. Furthermore, in the past half-century-plus, if efforts had been expended on looking for a treatment/cure for the measles instead of pushing the vaccine, it would probably be much less risky now. Can't fix that now, but at least don't fool yourself into thinking that childhood measles is like the plague. Like I said, adults might be wise to choose to vaccinate themselves, since they are the ones most at risk of actually dying of these diseases. Same is true of chicken pox, which, by the way, is starting to be demonized as much as measles nowadays. Oh, the horror!

Please note that the MMR/neurological link is just one of many issues with vaccines. I just cited it since you asked for an example.

Tell me, what is wrong with a policy that has adults getting vaccinated for diseases that are most dangerous for adults, and leaving it up to parents to make an informed decision about the less-dangerous childhood diseases?

SKL, we were discussing autism in our earlier posts, as the article mentioned it being one reason that some parents do not vaccinate, and I mentioned that as a child there were very few children with autism and very many who were vaccinated. You mentioned one of the vaccines, and I countered with a reason why some don't want to get it, and what the WHO has to say about it. It was very relevant to the conversation.

The problem with not vaccinating against childhood diseases is that most childhood diseases are spread person to person. If someone doesn't want to get their children vaccinated, they ought not bring them out in the general population where the child risks exposure to that disease, and possibly death. Now, of course not everyone dies from having the measles or mumps, but it can leave people sterile, or with other horrible handicaps (Helen Keller had a form of the measles I believe). Why would you want to risk that happening to your child? Furthermore, why would you want to risk that happening to someone else's child? Let's say you do not get your child vaccinated and they get the measles, and while the disease is incubating, they are around another child who is not old enough to be vaccinated and that child dies? A decision you made for your child just took the life of someone else's. I don't know if I could live with that, maybe you could.

There is also the fact that diseases morph and change all the time. They become stronger and more drug resistant. However, if a disease is eradicated, there it has no opportunity to change. That is, and always has been the purpose of vaccines--to eradicate diseases so that people don't have to rely on their immune system, which may or may not cure them.

Elizabeth, this isn't about "what I want" or "how I would feel." It's about forcing others' actions.

You know, I don't worry about my aging parents being exposed to measles. You know why? Because they had it as kids. They are immune for life. So are most of the elderly in this country. Most other Americans can get themselves vaccinated, or choose to risk it. There isn't much objective risk nowadays, anyway, but whatever.

The objective number of infants who would potentially die because of being exposed to measles in this day and age is so tiny, it's much smaller than the number of babies who die from the seasonal flu. So maybe everyone should keep their kids home (or maybe infants should stay home like they used to), because the chances of getting exposed to the flu is pretty high. Let's be honest, there are many greater risks that all kids are exposed to every day. These diseases are just hyped up to scare people into getting vaccinated. If the truth were told, most parents would probably still vaccinate, but probably not as aggressively as they currently do. (Many [if not most] MDs and pediatricians believe the current vaccine schedule is more aggressive than it needs to be.)

I am not anti-vaccine and my kids have had the vaccines I consider important enough (including the MMR) - on the schedule I set. But my parenting choices have nothing to do with what other parents should have a right to do. I mean, I would much rather force all parents to change their kids' diets, forbid TV, and teach literacy skills than force them to vaccinate. But this is America, where we supposedly respect individual rights.

SKL, while the elderly in this country may not get measles, what they do get are shingles, as a result of having had measles or chicken pox, which, especially with a weakened immune system, can be deadly. While I respect individual rights, I believe that when people enter society, we have to live by the rules and expectations that have been set. If people want their children to attend public school, there are certain expectations and rules that must be followed. Don't like it--find a private school or home school your kids. But the rules for schools are there for a reason. Now I don't agree with every one of them (not running on the pavement is the stupidest thing I ever heard--where are kids supposed to play at recess?), but in this instance I think that with large number of children and adults, not just the ones in school, but the ones that those in school go home to, disease prevention by vaccination is important, and if the school says your child should get this vaccination at this time for them to attend, well, that is well within their right to maintain a healthy environment. If you don't agree, it is your job as a parent to find an institution that is more suited to your needs, rather than waste the court's time and money to get your own way.

If everyone washed their hands all the time and never touched their faces, then we might not need to "force" people to vaccinate.

I live in a state where I have the right to opt out of vaccinations on philosophical grounds, and still send my kids to public school. I only wish other states were as true to the Constitution.